Small Caliber

[Coast Shootin]

Long time reader, don't post much, but value the information I've gotten from here over the years.

Have a 300 win mag that R Bros rifles built for me several years ago, it's been to Africa, Canada, and several other places and always kills what's in front of it.

But it's a 26in barrel with a brake and can be a little cumbersome going through brush.

I'm also a big fan of the Exo Mountain Gear guys and their podcast, and they have spoken a lot of the past few years about using small calibers on big game.

I'm almost positive that this has been brought up on the forum but couldn't actually find any prior posts.

What are everyone's thoughts on say a 6mm creedmoor, short barrel, but big game hunting out to stay 600-700 yards?

 

[Joel@LRO]

The overwhelming vibe you will get in response to this is ‘use enough gun.’ While people use 6mm for big game it’s not a forgiving setup should something go wrong. Point in fact I shot a bull elk at 414 yards quartering away with a 6.5x55 swede(moose capable caliber but not elk); missed the heart and took only 1 lung out. After miles of tracking and coming back the next day the bull was lost to a bear.

You currently have the holy grail set up with the 300 win mag.

Big game calibers start with a .30cal bullet. Deer sized-skinned animals can hunted with smaller successfully.

 

[Broz]

Deer to 500, not my first choice, but will work with well placed shots. 6mm for elk, not me. But some do.

 

[FURMAN]

If you can squeeze the bullet into the lungs behind the shoulder, most bullets will do a great job clear out to the bullets minimum impact of velocity for expansion. That’s never been the discussion with anyone that I know when it comes to the “use enough gun“. When you miss the wind call and the bullet doesn’t hit where you want it to go then you need extra horsepower so to speak to get through that extra material on the shoulder and if you do happen to hit the guts in my experience, archer bullets just flat out do more damage. Most hunters lie to themselves about how precise they can be in field conditions when the wind is blowing. I just put up an article discussing hit probabilities when you miss the wind call. When it comes to elk sized game I’ll stick with using the right gun and bullet. It’s not a 6mm.

 

[scottrod338]

All the elk I have shot have been 338wm, 338 Edge and 300wm. If I hadn't been corrupted by all the 300wm 215 Berger information on this forum I would have never stepped back to a 30 caliber. I've heard the horror stories of elk shot with less than 30 caliber and would never personally risk it. I'm sure a 20-22 inch 300wm would work fine at 600-700yds

 

[BCJR]

Long time reader, don't post much, but value the information I've gotten from here over the years.

Have a 300 win mag that R Bros rifles built for me several years ago, it's been to Africa, Canada, and several other places and always kills what's in front of it.

But it's a 26in barrel with a brake and can be a little cumbersome going through brush.

I'm also a big fan of the Exo Mountain Gear guys and their podcast, and they have spoken a lot of the past few years about using small calibers on big game.

I'm almost positive that this has been brought up on the forum but couldn't actually find any prior posts.

What are everyone's thoughts on say a 6mm creedmoor, short barrel, but big game hunting out to stay 600-700 yards?

You say your 300 has always killed what’s in front of you. You start shooting that varmit rifle at bigger critters you will not be able to make that statement “always kills”.

 

[Ash732]

6mm Creedmoor with a short barrel is a great mountain rifle for deer and similar sized game out to 600-700 yards if you’re solid with shot placement and use good bullets.

On bigger stuff elk, moose, larger African game it gets thin on energy and margin for error compared to your 300 Win Mag, especially once the barrel is short. Plenty of guys make it work, but it’s less forgiving when things aren’t perfect.

If the packability is the main win, go for it on the animals you’re actually hunting most. Keep the 300 for the bigger trips.

 

[Coast Shootin]

Appreciate the replies,

Yea I mean there's nothing wrong at all with my 300win mag setup, other than the overall length of the rifle and having to use ear protection always when shooting.

Furman, your article looks to talk about velocity as being the main driver of missed wind calls at distance.

So even if I was in a lighter caliber, theoretically, as long as I kept the barrel long I would close that gap on wind misses compared to larger calibers?

 

[FURMAN]

Appreciate the replies,

Yea I mean there's nothing wrong at all with my 300win mag setup, other than the overall length of the rifle and having to use ear protection always when shooting.

Furman, your article looks to talk about velocity as being the main driver of missed wind calls at distance.

So even if I was in a lighter caliber, theoretically, as long as I kept the barrel long I would close that gap on wind misses compared to larger calibers?

I think you need to focus on the hit probability difference between a 1 mile an hour wind missed call a 2 mph wind missed call and a 3 mph wind missed call. For this discussion the point isn’t the hit probability per se the point is you’re going to not make the perfect shot despite what people‘s egos or the Internet says you’re going to miss the wind call that is a fact and when your Bullet doesn’t go in the perfect spot, generally speaking a larger grain, Bullet is going to do a better job at those marginal shots

 

[Coast Shootin]

I think you need to focus on the hit probability difference between a 1 mile an hour wind missed call a 2 mph wind missed call and a 3 mph wind missed call. For this discussion the point isn’t the hit probability per se the point is you’re going to not make the perfect shot despite what people‘s egos or the Internet says you’re going to miss the wind call that is a fact and when your Bullet doesn’t go in the perfect spot, generally speaking a larger grain, Bullet is going to do a better job at those marginal shots

Yea I guess the point that others make is you are inherently going to shoot a smaller caliber better.

So what causes more issues, the better shot with the wrong wind call with a smaller caliber?

Or the worse shot with the wrong wind call with a larger caliber? Ha

Probably a difficult question to fully answer, but I understand your points

 

[FURMAN]

Yea I guess the point that others make is you are inherently going to shoot a smaller caliber better.

So what causes more issues, the better shot with the wrong wind call with a smaller caliber?

Or the worse shot with the wrong wind call with a larger caliber? Ha

Probably a difficult question to fully answer, but I understand your points

I’ve shot everything from 17 or I guess you could say 22 long rifle but I don’t think they belong in the group cause they just won’t shoot us small so let’s go with the 17 clear up to 338. You are not going to shoot small calibers significantly and I’m gonna repeat the word significantly smaller than you do a large caliber if you practice and that includes physical form and mental capabilities. Look it sounds to me like you started this with your mind already made up and that’s fine. It’s not my Hunts. You can do what you want. It doesn’t affect me, but you are going to lose far less game if you choose the appropriate cartridge for the situation and when you’re shooting large animals at long distance 6 mm are just not gonna cut it time and time again. The article I posted about shoot probability is physics and your inability to read the wind and when you don’t put the Bullet where it’s supposed to go large caliber will bail you out more than a small caliber’s going to bail out. Those are not opinions. Those are facts. The opinion is which one do you want to use?

Why don’t we use 22lr for bear protection? If you believe these are two different discussions, then this discussion is not in good faith.

 

[Coast Shootin]

I definitley wouldn’t say my mind is made up.

I have always hunted with large rifles and always had good results, but after hearing and listening to what sounds like a lot of data, I can logically see why a smaller caliber may be a good option, and possibly better.

I frankly like hearing both sides of topics and trying to poke holes in arguments until I decide what’s best for me.

My whole thesis is if I could get a short barrel rifle, suppressed, lighter recoil, can shoot cheaper, possibly more accurately, and can still kill well, that’s at least something to consider.

 

[FURMAN]

I definitley wouldn’t say my mind is made up.

I have always hunted with large rifles and always had good results, but after hearing and listening to what sounds like a lot of data, I can logically see why a smaller caliber may be a good option, and possibly better.

I frankly like hearing both sides of topics and trying to poke holes in arguments until I decide what’s best for me.

My whole thesis is if I could get a short barrel rifle, suppressed, lighter recoil, can shoot cheaper, possibly more accurately, and can still kill well, that’s at least something to consider.

I don’t think I can help you. It sounds to me like you’re taking your advice from one group of people maybe I’ve got it wrong. I’ve gone as low as 6.5 on large animals and I’m telling you right now I will not do it again on purpose. In Africa, you get to pay for the game you wound I think if we did that here it would change a lot of opinions.

 

[SpeyRod]

The smallest I have killed an elk with is 7-08. It was fine on multiple cows until it wasn’t. The year I lost a cow, found 3 days later, was the year I quit using the 7-08. I have also killed a couple cows with 6.5 PRC. With heavier bullets I would be fine hunting a bull with one. But, that said, my elk rifle is now a 300 wm.

I would hunt everything under an elk with a good bullet in the 6 Creedmoor.

 

[Coast Shootin]

I don’t think I can help you. It sounds to me like you’re taking your advice from one group of people maybe I’ve got it wrong. I’ve gone as low as 6.5 on large animals and I’m telling you right now I will not do it again on purpose. In Africa, you get to pay for the game you wound I think if we did that here it would change a lot of opinions.

Hah you are helping me, I’ve followed your posts over the years and I think you base your decisions on data more than a lot of people.

Like I said, I like to hear different points of view, try to poke holes in arguments and then try to make a decision.

I appreciate hearing about your experiences, I’ve never shot anything in Africa with less than a 7mm myself, and shot my dall sheep with my 300win mag, hah

But you can only kill an animal so much, so I’m just curious where the lower limit is

 

[FURMAN]

It’s obviously different or I guess I should say maybe it’s not obviously different for different animals. I do think if you’re using a 30 cal on a pronghorn it’s not gonna have enough time to slow the bullet down and expand like something like a 6.5 or a 6 mm will so I do believe in the right tool for the right job and I’ve said it hundreds if not thousands of times before if you put the right 6 mm bullet in the lungs especially like a quartering away shot. It’s gonna do great some 6 mm bullets aren’t capable some are awesome. The problem is when it hits the shoulder the kind of 6 mm that you need to actually expand enough to do damage to the animals not gonna get the penetration you need and if you have the right 6 mm bullet for good penetration it’s probably not gonna expand like you need. I think we all know if you double lung an animal or even if it pencils through it it’s probably gonna die. The question is how long is it gonna run before that happens. my threshold for elk and Kudo and eland gems buck is a 30 cow. I’ve shot them with six fives and 7 mm and I wasn’t happy with the performance.