Recent Boone & Crockett statement, hint it's not favorable

bigngreen

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Question for you guys. I am not sure it would be accepted, nor do I feel I am an authority. But I am considering contacting B&C and offer to travel to their home office for a meeting with them. The purpose would be to re-write their stance on long range hunting with someone that is fully aware of the sport offering insight.

Am I crazy?

Do you feel it would be a waste of time?

Do they prefer not to hear it?

Please give me your honest feedback. Then I will decide if I would even want to. I would only do this for proper representation of the high regards for the game we hunt that we all truly share.

Jeff

I've been mulling over this whole think quite a bit since I've been sitting around a lot with the new little guy, and I have come to think that there are two ways to deal with this. One is to remain publicly out of the ethics discussion or two, go in and work our butts of to educate people who are completely ignorant of our way of hunting.
I honestly think that we are now at a turning point, we have, as a general rule just stayed out of ethical debate but I think now we need to become fully engaged in it or see groups like B@C who in reality have some pull at the state level in laws and on the public level of preserving hunting at the polls!

I also think that as the non hunting public looks at hunting they look at the "hunt" and want to see three things, a fair chase, a clean kill and they want to see that we respect the animal enough to do every thing we can to utilize it beyond just the trophy aspect.
We know the we hunt hard for that one shot on that one animal and fair chase is alive in our hunting, we excel in taking game cleanly and it is a driving force behind long range hunting and I think B@C would really benefit from us in this especially when you watch hunting shows with them following up "thinking" they put a good shot on. Finally I would really like them to understand that almost every hunting show out there will at some point show animals getting recovers a day or more later because they are unsure of the shot, we all know that animal has zero meat value and was wasted and I'm sure at some level the general public gets that also, I have found that taking game at range allows me to see that animal after the shot and recovery has been a cinch, I have not spent a single hour looking for a downed animal at long range and I've not lost any meat because of long range hunting.

I think we get involved with these groups or we let them set the political and public view on ethical hunting without us and we become the scape goat for all slob hunting!

 

Ryan Avery

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It's really sad to see these club's/Organisations putting a wedge between hunters. This is why I quite giving them my money. They start out with the best of intentions then greed and agendas creep in. Only the NRA gets my money now.
 

Idaho Redneck

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I've been mulling over this whole think quite a bit since I've been sitting around a lot with the new little guy, and I have come to think that there are two ways to deal with this. One is to remain publicly out of the ethics discussion or two, go in and work our butts of to educate people who are completely ignorant of our way of hunting.
I honestly think that we are now at a turning point, we have, as a general rule just stayed out of ethical debate but I think now we need to become fully engaged in it or see groups like B@C who in reality have some pull at the state level in laws and on the public level of preserving hunting at the polls!

I also think that as the non hunting public looks at hunting they look at the "hunt" and want to see three things, a fair chase, a clean kill and they want to see that we respect the animal enough to do every thing we can to utilize it beyond just the trophy aspect.
We know the we hunt hard for that one shot on that one animal and fair chase is alive in our hunting, we excel in taking game cleanly and it is a driving force behind long range hunting and I think B@C would really benefit from us in this especially when you watch hunting shows with them following up "thinking" they put a good shot on. Finally I would really like them to understand that almost every hunting show out there will at some point show animals getting recovers a day or more later because they are unsure of the shot, we all know that animal has zero meat value and was wasted and I'm sure at some level the general public gets that also, I have found that taking game at range allows me to see that animal after the shot and recovery has been a cinch, I have not spent a single hour looking for a downed animal at long range and I've not lost any meat because of long range hunting.

I think we get involved with these groups or we let them set the political and public view on ethical hunting without us and we become the scape goat for all slob hunting!


X-ring x 10.

Hell not much left to say, what the vast majority of folks lack is an understanding of how and what we do, if we dont become involved in these discussions, taking place Wherever they show up, your right we become the scapegoats. Im with ya BnG. Couldnt have scraped my thoughts on it together near as good as that, well said.
 

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I've been mulling over this whole think quite a bit since I've been sitting around a lot with the new little guy, and I have come to think that there are two ways to deal with this. One is to remain publicly out of the ethics discussion or two, go in and work our butts of to educate people who are completely ignorant of our way of hunting.
I honestly think that we are now at a turning point, we have, as a general rule just stayed out of ethical debate but I think now we need to become fully engaged in it or see groups like B@C who in reality have some pull at the state level in laws and on the public level of preserving hunting at the polls!

I also think that as the non hunting public looks at hunting they look at the "hunt" and want to see three things, a fair chase, a clean kill and they want to see that we respect the animal enough to do every thing we can to utilize it beyond just the trophy aspect.
We know the we hunt hard for that one shot on that one animal and fair chase is alive in our hunting, we excel in taking game cleanly and it is a driving force behind long range hunting and I think B@C would really benefit from us in this especially when you watch hunting shows with them following up "thinking" they put a good shot on. Finally I would really like them to understand that almost every hunting show out there will at some point show animals getting recovers a day or more later because they are unsure of the shot, we all know that animal has zero meat value and was wasted and I'm sure at some level the general public gets that also, I have found that taking game at range allows me to see that animal after the shot and recovery has been a cinch, I have not spent a single hour looking for a downed animal at long range and I've not lost any meat because of long range hunting.

I think we get involved with these groups or we let them set the political and public view on ethical hunting without us and we become the scape goat for all slob hunting!


Very good post. This might sound like a joke, so think about this for a minute, but maybe what we need is a group or board if you will, to educate, represent and set forth our own standards we condone for ethical long range hunting as a sport. We could easily obtain sponsors, print literature, fb page, web page, offer our polocies and thought to other groups to educate????? I would get involved in this???

Jeff
 

MontanaMarine

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I agree with your thought BnG.

It's always good to get engaged in these conversations and introduce some reality into the picture that the LR naysayers wish to paint.

In the grand scheme of things, I believe long range shooting/hunting is here to stay, and it will never go backwards. There is so much innovation and support from the makers of optics, arms, ammo makers, weather units, along with all the other modern tools that go along with the sport. Then, look at all of the long range training available to the public these days...there is a LOT of it out there. And let's not forget the television shows, heck they are practically infomercials for the latest equipment, and guided hunting opportunities. More and more folks are getting into the long range shooting sports, and of course that dovetails right into long range hunting.

We live in a world that is being RAPIDLY changed by technology in seemingly every aspect of our lives. I for one, do not embrace all of the technology (I still don't carry a cell phone), but it is here to stay wether I like it or not.

Long range hunting is here to stay as well.

The naysayers will find themselves in a smaller and smaller minority as time goes on.

The public statement by B&C reflects the mindset of that organizations leadership, and that's about all it does. Their dislike for long range is irrelevant in my opinion. They can dislike in one hand, and crap in the other....see which one fills up first.
 
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ELRS

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I think you need a TV show. While I might not agree with Arron Davidson completely...they do a nice job educating people on LR. The way we do it is different but yet very effective. Sponsors like Berger, NF, etc. Educational show with hunting ,highlights.
Maybe not practical but from some of the hunting show I have seen....I think there would be an interest?
 

Wile E Coyote

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I've been mulling over this whole think quite a bit since I've been sitting around a lot with the new little guy, and I have come to think that there are two ways to deal with this. One is to remain publicly out of the ethics discussion or two, go in and work our butts of to educate people who are completely ignorant of our way of hunting.
I honestly think that we are now at a turning point, we have, as a general rule just stayed out of ethical debate but I think now we need to become fully engaged in it or see groups like B@C who in reality have some pull at the state level in laws and on the public level of preserving hunting at the polls!

I also think that as the non hunting public looks at hunting they look at the "hunt" and want to see three things, a fair chase, a clean kill and they want to see that we respect the animal enough to do every thing we can to utilize it beyond just the trophy aspect.
We know the we hunt hard for that one shot on that one animal and fair chase is alive in our hunting, we excel in taking game cleanly and it is a driving force behind long range hunting and I think B@C would really benefit from us in this especially when you watch hunting shows with them following up "thinking" they put a good shot on. Finally I would really like them to understand that almost every hunting show out there will at some point show animals getting recovers a day or more later because they are unsure of the shot, we all know that animal has zero meat value and was wasted and I'm sure at some level the general public gets that also, I have found that taking game at range allows me to see that animal after the shot and recovery has been a cinch, I have not spent a single hour looking for a downed animal at long range and I've not lost any meat because of long range hunting.

I think we get involved with these groups or we let them set the political and public view on ethical hunting without us and we become the scape goat for all slob hunting!


Very good points, particularly about being involved in a positive manner. Though the perception of the "non hunting public" may not be entirely accurate in my view and may I offer how. This MAY be because of the general mindset in different regions of the country. Here, 75 miles NW of NYC it seems as if you are either an outdoors man or a nature nazi; there isn't any middle. I sincerely hope it is different elsewhere. The mindset of some will never be changed and may in fact only be hardened with any discussion. This hard edged mindset is very close to my home with recent news events that have nothing to do with hunting yet have impacted my ability to engage in shooting sports.


Pete
 

Wile E Coyote

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I see Wayne Van Zwoll is opining on this in this month's Bugle, also. Our new Jim Zumbo...


Lets not forget how fast Dick Metcalf was run out of town at G&A magazine/TV for his piece that was similar to Jim Zumbo's
 

The Guide

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We need to show people that the long range community practices year round and we each know our own "effective range" for our own skills, our rifle, our loads, our equipment, and our terrain or hunting area. For some it is 450 yards, others it is 850 yards, and still others it is 1500 yards. I am not the best LR shooter or hunter but I continue to practice and learn to make myself the best that I can be and I know my limitations. How many of these policy makers from B&C who hunt actually know their limitations and stick too them? Too many "300 yard shots" end up being 400 yard shots because people don't range them and just hold on fur or "just over the back".

Jay
 

bigngreen

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Very good post. This might sound like a joke, so think about this for a minute, but maybe what we need is a group or board if you will, to educate, represent and set forth our own standards we condone for ethical long range hunting as a sport. We could easily obtain sponsors, print literature, fb page, web page, offer our polocies and thought to other groups to educate????? I would get involved in this???

Jeff

Jeff, I'm definitely tracking with ya on this!! I think we should take this B@C stance as a warning shot that we need to step up! I've been a member of the MT Trappers Association for a while and they work hard to be involved with FWP as a partner and other groups so they are active and involved in decisions that affect the MTA and they have weight to push back with when the anti's start pushing but they waited till there was a serious threat so they've had to fight hard to gain lost ground in the public perception of trapping.
 
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Ryan Avery

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Very good post. This might sound like a joke, so think about this for a minute, but maybe what we need is a group or board if you will, to educate, represent and set forth our own standards we condone for ethical long range hunting as a sport. We could easily obtain sponsors, print literature, fb page, web page, offer our polocies and thought to other groups to educate????? I would get involved in this???

Jeff

I could get behind this. Trying to educate clubs like B&C is piss in the wind IME. Like I said they have agendas and old ideas of what hunting should be. Having a set of standard written by ACTUAL qualified LRH makes sense!
 

Broz

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We have kinda adopted the "no ethics discussion" mind set, and I am thinking that might have been ok in the beginning, but not so much now. I think we should make the uneducated on sport of long range know just how ethical it can be in regards to the humane taking of game animals. If not the uninformed will continue to believe and spread just the opposite.
 

jmden

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I see Wayne Van Zwoll is opining on this in this month's Bugle, also. Our new Jim Zumbo...

Yes, unfortunately, Van Zwoll, someone I respect, has, several times in his column, made it pretty clear that he does not approve of LRH. If I recall correctly, I think John Burns spent some time with him, what, 3-4 years back or so, and there seemed to be a bit of a softening on Zwoll's part to LRH for a bit, but since then his writing seems to have gotten more negative about LRH. I enjoy reading his column, until there's a partially disquised bashing of LRH that shows up.

A couple of years ago, I wrote a letter to Bugle defending LRH, after another article by him or someone else (may have been someone else that was making more of an issue than Zwoll usually does) that did not put responsible LRH in a proper light at all and clearly did not know what they were talking about, but it wasn't printed. It does make you scratch your head a bit and make you wonder what bit of political correctness (for lack of better term) these organizations are holding to. Perhaps it's Zwoll on his own and Bugle just prints whatever he writes. I don't know. Not a writer and not in that business, but from seeing the actual inside workings of other issues compared to the digested information that the public is actually given about that issue, I would think Bugle has some significant say in how certain 'touchy' subjects are written about in it's publication. It may be that LRH is one of those touchy subjects.

I think for many who don't know, the way we do things (for us, no big deal) is a bit of an unknown and perhaps even mysterious and because of that, feared to some degree, simply out of a lack of understanding, and/or a lack of a willingness to try to understand, which is what I often find. That's been my personal experience with some hunting acquaintences anyway. Good guys, just have their way of doing things and aren't willing to try and understand a different way to do things, unfortunately. Hmmm...
 

Sam Millard

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Yes, unfortunately, Van Zwoll, someone I respect, has, several times in his column, made it pretty clear that he does not approve of LRH. If I recall correctly, I think John Burns spent some time with him, what, 3-4 years back or so, and there seemed to be a bit of a softening on Zwoll's part to LRH for a bit, but since then his writing seems to have gotten more negative about LRH. I enjoy reading his column, until there's a partially disquised bashing of LRH that shows up.

A couple of years ago, I wrote a letter to Bugle defending LRH, after another article by him or someone else (may have been someone else that was making more of an issue than Zwoll usually does) that did not put responsible LRH in a proper light at all and clearly did not know what they were talking about, but it wasn't printed. It does make you scratch your head a bit and make you wonder what bit of political correctness (for lack of better term) these organizations are holding to. Perhaps it's Zwoll on his own and Bugle just prints whatever he writes. I don't know. Not a writer and not in that business, but from seeing the actual inside workings of other issues compared to the digested information that the public is actually given about that issue, I would think Bugle has some significant say in how certain 'touchy' subjects are written about in it's publication. It may be that LRH is one of those touchy subjects.

I think for many who don't know, the way we do things (for us, no big deal) is a bit of an unknown and perhaps even mysterious and because of that, feared to some degree, simply out of a lack of understanding, and/or a lack of a willingness to try to understand, which is what I often find. That's been my personal experience with some hunting acquaintences anyway. Good guys, just have their way of doing things and aren't willing to try and understand a different way to do things, unfortunately. Hmmm...

You are spot on with that last paragraph and my experiences mirror yours. Even some family members who hunt disapprove of my LRH (always behind my back and quietly!)

I'm afraid we are being tossed into the same pile as the guy who shoots his factory rifle, with the Simmons on it and factory ammo, at the elk on the next ridge over by holding "a foot over his back". Of course if the bull doesn't drop, he assumes a miss and carries on with his hunt.

It disappoints me that Van Zwoll is so hostile to LRH. His column was always the first I read in every Bugle. He clearly has an agenda, with this article and his penning of the document B&C references for their position statement. Apparently we possess no talent other than being able to "tug on the trigger"...
 

bigngreen

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Ya, Zwoll took a bull at 603 with a 6.5 Creedmore using 129 gr SST factory ammo. The video has gone MIA on you tube but I remember watching it and there are some discussions on a few forum on it.
 

jmden

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I cannot seem to find my latest issue of Bugle... Did Zwoll really give LRH a bad time? I noticed several, barely veiled, seemingly negative references in the past, but this is sounding different.
 

Sam Millard

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I cannot seem to find my latest issue of Bugle... Did Zwoll really give LRH a bad time? I noticed several, barely veiled, seemingly negative references in the past, but this is sounding different.

It's still barely veiled/passive aggressive stuff, but the last words of the article are"...some shooters settle for pokes that require no talent beyond the tug of a trigger. Pity." Title reads: "How Much Help Do You Need?" References Tracking Point scopes and LRF scopes, neither of which I've ever seen anywhere, let alone know anyone who uses them.
 

bigngreen

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Here's a little Zwoll You Tube action.

[video=youtube;TyaDMJmRncY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=TyaDMJmRncY[/video]
 

Broz

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RMEF admits to be close to B&C. The "push my agenda" mind set shown in this video is what makes me leery to even talk to either about the benefits of using extended distances as just one tool and precision shot placement to hunt. The ability to take your time to choose a cull animal from a herd, size up the game and decide if you do want to shoot or not, precisely place one shot for a quick dispatch. But I am a bit fearful they could take what they would learn from us and twist it to further their agenda. I need to be able to trust them, videos like this make it hard. They are acting like liberal media and we all know how they twist things. I am having a problem trusting them enough to actually share what I know in fear it will be twisted.

Jeff
 

bigngreen

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Every one of us have taken someone hunting to one of our good spots, only to have them bring all their buddies there the next year and destroy your hunting and the thought of talking with B@C kinda gives me that same feeling however I think if we don't at least talk face to face with them in a careful but honest manner we at the very least won't know if we need to pull our ranks together and get a plan together to defend our selves in the public forum or if we can influence these groups and gain allies and strengthen both our groups against the anti hunting tide.

One thing about B@C I'm seeing is they are responding to us on Facebook and trying to clarify their position, which contrary to some who want us to remain a small powerless fringe group, tells me we may have some pull but I think the window will be short before a stance is solidified.
These groups do seem on the liberal side to you and me BUT we have to remember they are trying to reach and influence a non hunting or even anti segment of the population, sometimes our harsh this is how I roll taking or leave it way may cause us more trouble than engaging in a conversation.
 

MontanaMarine

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Looks like RMEF and B&C are on the same sheet of music.

Zwoll is steeped in condescending arrogance, in that vid. Wow.





When someone shows you who they are.....believe them.
 

jmden

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Here's a little Zwoll You Tube action.

[video=youtube;TyaDMJmRncY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=TyaDMJmRncY[/video]

Well, there it is...

That's going to make it harder for me to support RMEF. I think, for the most part, what they do is great, but Zwoll has gotten to them and I also wonder if he's the one who's gotten to B&C, both organizations being in Missoula. Zwoll is from my own state if I recall...
 

Niles Coyote

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[video=youtube;oNsIvsqHbqs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=oNsIvsqHbqs[/video]

I am not a "Trophy" hunter, rather my trophy is the totality of the hunting experience/trip. If that's hours/days of waiting in my elevated deer stand in Michigan watching nature happen or driving to the wilds of Montana's eastern hill country soaking in the beauty and walking through the poking sage and those sand burr things you don't want to sit on till I find something... That's the trophy I take away with me and some freezer meat of course.

Don't get me wrong, I look for a sturdy, mature buck but the rack score is not high priority. Guess I am just a little different but... in that video the tone of the speaker drips of arrogance and elitism and make me want no part of them... nor there scoring my game, nor there judgement of my hunt.
 
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bigngreen

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Personally I don't give a rats behind about what a guy like Zwoll thinks of my hunting or how I hunt BUT I do care about what a group like B@C or RMEF thinks because they have the swing to influence state laws and public opinion. Just imagine and I don't think it would be hard to see this, that a group like B@C determines that a wind meter or a LRF should not be allowed in a hunting situation and then they push this at the FWP and state level. While it sound far fetched I don't think it is because in MT the used of trail cameras are not legal during hunting season and a game warden will removed them and find you, your fine during the off season but during season this has been deemed a no go. It's the pull that these groups have at a state level that has me concerned!
 

jmden

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http://highcountrywomen.com/about-wayne/

Looks like he's a 'professional' member of B&C. Not sure what that means. Look down his list of books near the bottom and there's one titled Hunter's Guide to Long Range Shooting... Anybody have that book? Published 2006. Lives in north-central WA (Bridgeport).
 

jmden

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[video=youtube;oNsIvsqHbqs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=oNsIvsqHbqs[/video]

Good video for every hunter to watch, but I still do not care for their take on long range and technology (plenty of counter arguments to theirs), althought it's interesting they leave more wiggle room in this video than in their recent statement.
 

jmden

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Personally I don't give a rats behind about what a guy like Zwoll thinks of my hunting or how I hunt BUT I do care about what a group like B@C or RMEF thinks because they have the swing to influence state laws and public opinion. Just imagine and I don't think it would be hard to see this, that a group like B@C determines that a wind meter or a LRF should not be allowed in a hunting situation and then they push this at the FWP and state level. While it sound far fetched I don't think it is because in MT the used of trail cameras are not legal during hunting season and a game warden will removed them and find you, your fine during the off season but during season this has been deemed a no go. It's the pull that these groups have at a state level that has me concerned!

I think you're right on BnG.
 

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jmden,
I believe you're correct about Wayne Van Zwoll being from Washington. I think he's retired F&W, an organization I have yet to have a positive experience with. He maintains the arrogance associated with that organization.

I just read a Facebook post from Tim Titus (No Off Season) that Van Zwoll placed just behind his son and nephew at the Vortex shoot at Spirit Ridge.

My guess is he's got a mind set it's OK for him, but not anyone else. Tied in with RMEF he may be influencing them, or he's making a buck touting the company line. He writes what he knows will get published.
 

Sam Millard

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http://highcountrywomen.com/about-wayne/

Looks like he's a 'professional' member of B&C. Not sure what that means. Look down his list of books near the bottom and there's one titled Hunter's Guide to Long Range Shooting... Anybody have that book? Published 2006. Lives in north-central WA (Bridgeport).

I read it. It quickly went into the goodwill pile, which is unusual for a gun book:) Not much in it for "Long Range" guys!
 

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I am having a problem trusting them enough to actually share what I know in fear it will be twisted.

Jeff

They'll twist it. I'm not a pessimist but they'll twist it.

I have gone the rounds with corrupt companies and corrupt local government. If they have an agenda (it sounds like B&C and maybe RMEF may) and they have money (they do) they will take what ever down right honest from the heart, well educated/informed feedback/information you give them and spin the S$&! Out of it to make themselves and their agenda look and sound great in the eyes and ears of those who have more money and time to help out their cause.
I have been reading this thread every day and trying to really decide my feelings on the subject. It has made me look at Pope & Young's web site and the Longhunter Society to see what their foundations are and what some of their "rules" are. I would bet that when P&Y said they would not accept cross bows it pissed a few folks off but I never read anywhere that said if you use any other kind of bow you must stay under "X" yards or we don't like your hunting style. I did not see on the Longhunter society where they said anything about how they do not like advances in technology and the human nature to improve and would only accept muzzle loader harvests under "x" yards.
However; Although I don't know everything there is to know about B&C I do know they are a club and can probably make their own rules. If they want to make the stance they are starting they should just say, we don't like longrange hunting and we will only accept shots under (? What ever they think). Then they can have fun calling everyone in the record books and asking how many yards they took their trophy at. Their rules are their rules and that ok so long as they stop shot (very short) of bad mouthing true sportsman who spend countless hours trying to perfect a sport they love.
 

HARPERC

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They are acting like liberal media and we all know how they twist things. I am having a problem trusting them enough to actually share what I know in fear it will be twisted.

That's probably correct, especially at the personal level you don't need to be the face of "LRH" As much as I think you would be great at it, I had not thought of fall out from anti's camped on your lawn, or messing with your stuff.
 

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I know people who never sight in their rifle before season and have no business shooting at any distance....maybe that Monkey Zwoll could address that instead of picking on people who do their homework grrrrrr
 

The Guide

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I know people who never sight in their rifle before season and have no business shooting at any distance....maybe that Monkey Zwoll could address that instead of picking on people who do their homework grrrrrr

Exactly my point earlier. I know the effective range of both my equipment and my skills. 90% of all hunters don't and will take marginal shots at extended ranges that they shouldn't even try.

Jay
 

jmden

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I know people who never sight in their rifle before season and have no business shooting at any distance....maybe that Monkey Zwoll could address that instead of picking on people who do their homework grrrrrr

Very good point, Joel. If you are going to pick on something, pick on the folks who aren't hunting responsibly, but better yet, continually promote safe, responsible, legal, ethical hunting. BTW, I realized when the mail came yesterday why I hadn't seen Zwoll's article--I got Bugle a couple of days later than some of you guys...

Apparently, Mr. Z can shoot LR quite well and has been proven to do well in competitions and at over 600 yards on elk, but for the most part chooses not to use the ability he may have to shoot LR on big game. That's fine, let us choose our way of responsible hunting as well. As I real Zwoll's article it became more apparent to me that he seems to be a very privileged hunter. In his latest Bugle column I believe he noted hunting in at least 2 different states and I think 3 continents. He clearly has hunting opportunities and is a privileged hunter compared to most of us. I think that this opportunity may begin to taint ones perspective over time and you may forget what it's like to not be able to afford the time or $ to shoot out of state or country and when filling the freezer effectively and feeding your family is the main goal. You may be so privileged and have so many opportunities that you feel you should only take certain kinds of shot and, perhaps, others should agree with you. I'm not saying that is his thinking, but he is clearly privileged and I do think there is opportunity over time, with that kind of privilege, to have the privilege affect your perspective on the reality of hunting for most folks.

He is right in that most folks have little business taking long pokes--they don't have the knowledge or know how to use the wrong gear they even have to do so. MOst of us have seen that many times, but Zwoll is knocking any kind of LRH, not just those that do so irresponsibly and don't know their limits. I'll be writing a letter to Bugle here soon, I think...
 

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Yep. cbanner I moved you post to the existing thread on B&C's position. Hope that's ok.

Some of us have went to the B&C headquarters to discuss the many merits of precision hunting at distance. It went ok and we will see where they take it from here.

Jeff
 

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Thanks for that effort, Broz. I hope it yields good fruit.
 

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Thanks for that effort, Broz. I hope it yields good fruit.

I am very undecided as to what their true agenda is. But I know my personality flaws well and trusting people is one of them, especially when people take an elevated chair to look down at others that do something different from their own methods. One thing is for sure, and we all need to work on this. The general 100 yard club, is as a rule, very uneducated as to what we do as far as preparation, commitment, and code of ethics for precision hunting at distance. I keep seeing this crap like, "if the animal runs off after the shot no one will cross a canyon to look for blood" What?? what about spotters? why would we not go look if we are comfortable with the shot as being a high percentage hit? They just don't know what we do and how we as a whole work within our "effective distance" for a precision well placed shot. So I feel we have a job to do to educate the ones that will listen and are reasonable.

On a side note. This fb post is getting quite a bit of comment from guys that are ok with precision distance shots and those comments are getting more likes than the negative comments. At least so far. I view that as progress and more educated posters.

Jeff
 

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Too many people and companies are giving the sport a bad name. Slogans such as "1000 yards out of the box" basically encourage people to not put in the man hours to practice so they can get that first round hit. I see too many people around home that shouldn't be shooting past 100 yards because the make a box of shells last several years.
 

Broz

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Too many people and companies are giving the sport a bad name. Slogans such as "1000 yards out of the box" basically encourage people to not put in the man hours to practice so they can get that first round hit. I see too many people around home that shouldn't be shooting past 100 yards because the make a box of shells last several years.

Agreed and this was the root of the conversation with B&C and is there biggest concern.

Jeff
 

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Yes, Stecker wrote a very good piece there. Good for Berger. Well said.
 

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People view hunting differently. For some it is fair chase, the thrill of the stalk, using your senses against theirs. For others it is simple meat collection.

I am a meat collector. I am not much of a "hunter" I guess. I put game in the freezer as quickly and easily as I legally can. I am under no illusion that I am offering the game any sort of fair chance or "sporting" contest, I am not. Their senses and mental acuity means I am going to win because I am using superior technology and tactics-it is not a fair contest and never was going to be.

Men are predators. Other predators don't fret over their natural advantages, they exploit them mercilessly for survival. Lions do not temper the use of their claws or teeth or intentionally give a gazelle a head start, because it is not a game to them.

I do not see hunting as a game either. Nothing wrong with it if you do. But Boone and Crockett is kidding themselves. The entire idea of hunting as a sport or game is a totally artificial construct unless you hunt with nothing other than what you were born with. If you hunt any other way then you have already surrendered the principle of "fairness", as if there really is such a concept in nature anyway. Once you break that principle, all further discussion is simply debate over to what degree we will take advantage of lesser species as the apex predator on this planet. There is no fairness, and never was, and in that respect all hunters are the same and always have been...you kill, because you can and you want to for some reason, whether it is to eat or clothe yourself or whatever other need or want it fulfills.

I do not apologize for this because I did not choose the way of nature. Anyone critiquing another for fair chase is willfully choosing to ignore the truth. There is no fair chase in nature. The writer of that article and the graphic artist that produced the cover of the magazine have both subsisted on meat from animals that were bred, born, raised in a pen, controlled and then systematically slaughtered to provide those writers food and clothing and other goods. Hypocrites, the lot of them.

This is just more liberal hogwash creeping into our collective culture. Some men don't want to face the way of the world and try to kid themselves that what they are doing is "sporting" out of some misguided guilt they having for killing something else for their own survival. Yes, I value individual life. Out of respect for that I take what I take from nature without causing more suffering than is required. But there is suffering, and will be whether we hunt or not, eat meat or not, it is the way of this world. I manipulate the world around me to my advantage, because I can, and respect for my own life demands it. I attempt to preserve the continuation of nature because I have children I love and I want them to succeed and enjoy the fruits of nature as well. But I will never apologize or feel guilty for being the apex predator I was born to be, and you were born to be. Neither do I apologize for claiming to defend myself from other predators, be they animal or man, again because I value human life I will preserve it from such violence as well as disease or hunger. Anyone who attempts to limit my right to do those things is my enemy, and a threat to my existence and that of my children, and their children, and natural law itself.
 

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A little late to the party, but I emailed this to the Boone & Crockett organization (don't/won't do FB):

"Dear Boone & Crockett Club,


Incase you don't read any further, I will put my main message right up front for you:


Until/unless you withdraw, retract, or revise your position on Long Range Hunting I am retracting all support of and association with your organization. I won't stop there, I will oppose your organization and spread the word about your hypocrisy and elitism every chance I get.




I find your recent position statement on Long Range Hunting divisive, uninformed, overstepping of your bounds, and quit frankly ridiculous. Especially the way it was presented with the picture of a tank firing rockets. That was done in poor taste. Shame on you! You are on a dangerous road to enabling others to restrict current hunting freedoms.


In any kind of hunting, there are those who lack responsibility and take shots they shouldn't, at any range. Why single out those who choose to hunt at what you arbitrarily consider to be long range? Would it be OK if they were using the B&C reticle system that you designed with Leupold, which is a poor, inflexible, and inferior long long range shooting system anyway compared other available options? How hypocritical of you to promote a long range shooting system while condoning Long Range Hunting practices in the next breath.


Your core statement that long range hunting doesn't allow the animal to have a chance to use it's senses is ridiculous... No more so than does the use of tree stands, blinds, baits, scent eliminators, Camoflauge, decoys, conditioning of animals to human activity, hunting in areas with exclusive access where animals have been conditioned not to reasonably fear humans... I could go on... How about the use of guides to do all of the scouting and real work, making the 'hunter' just the 'John' that pulls the trigger? I see no position statement on that, and there shouldn't be as much as I dislike it, as that is the point. Who made you THE authority on what is fair chase, ethical, and what is not?


It takes no less skill, preparation, or woodsman-ship to hunt in a way that sets one up for an ethical long range shot, than it does to stalk up on an animal. And much more skill than it does to push or jump up an animal at close range and get in a lucky shot, which incidentally you have no position statement against either. If you believe otherwise then you are uninformed and inexperienced about long range hunting.


For me an animal taken deliberately, cleanly, and skillfully at long range is much more of a trophy, regardless of antler size/shape, than one taken by pure luck that scores highly (as-per your arbitrary measurement system).


Instead of denigrating long range hunting, you should be promoting responsible, ethical, and legal hunting. Uniting the hunting community, not dividing it.
 

Sam Millard

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A little late to the party, but I emailed this to the Boone & Crockett organization (don't/won't do FB):

"Dear Boone & Crockett Club,


Incase you don't read any further, I will put my main message right up front for you:


Until/unless you withdraw, retract, or revise your position on Long Range Hunting I am retracting all support of and association with your organization. I won't stop there, I will oppose your organization and spread the word about your hypocrisy and elitism every chance I get.




I find your recent position statement on Long Range Hunting divisive, uninformed, overstepping of your bounds, and quit frankly ridiculous. Especially the way it was presented with the picture of a tank firing rockets. That was done in poor taste. Shame on you! You are on a dangerous road to enabling others to restrict current hunting freedoms.


In any kind of hunting, there are those who lack responsibility and take shots they shouldn't, at any range. Why single out those who choose to hunt at what you arbitrarily consider to be long range? Would it be OK if they were using the B&C reticle system that you designed with Leupold, which is a poor, inflexible, and inferior long long range shooting system anyway compared other available options? How hypocritical of you to promote a long range shooting system while condoning Long Range Hunting practices in the next breath.


Your core statement that long range hunting doesn't allow the animal to have a chance to use it's senses is ridiculous... No more so than does the use of tree stands, blinds, baits, scent eliminators, Camoflauge, decoys, conditioning of animals to human activity, hunting in areas with exclusive access where animals have been conditioned not to reasonably fear humans... I could go on... How about the use of guides to do all of the scouting and real work, making the 'hunter' just the 'John' that pulls the trigger? I see no position statement on that, and there shouldn't be as much as I dislike it, as that is the point. Who made you THE authority on what is fair chase, ethical, and what is not?


It takes no less skill, preparation, or woodsman-ship to hunt in a way that sets one up for an ethical long range shot, than it does to stalk up on an animal. And much more skill than it does to push or jump up an animal at close range and get in a lucky shot, which incidentally you have no position statement against either. If you believe otherwise then you are uninformed and inexperienced about long range hunting.


For me an animal taken deliberately, cleanly, and skillfully at long range is much more of a trophy, regardless of antler size/shape, than one taken by pure luck that scores highly (as-per your arbitrary measurement system).


Instead of denigrating long range hunting, you should be promoting responsible, ethical, and legal hunting. Uniting the hunting community, not dividing it.

Nicely done!
 

Mudhen

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Maybe B&C would rather support these herd shooters Broz mentioned who are unnecessarily wounding elk in their incompetent attempts to kill at CLOSER ranges.
 

usmcm16a2

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Folks,


Let Boob and Crockpot spew all they want, as long as long range hunting is done ethically and legally who cares what B&C think. A2

 

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