Recent Boone & Crockett statement, hint it's not favorable

Pyroducksx3

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http://www.boone-crockett.org/about/LRS.asp?area=about&ID=6B455080&se=1&te=1
If you disagree I suggest you let them know, and I don't mean blast them for being terrorists. We need to remain together and united as sportsman. I have no idea what would cause them want a divide like this. I posted to their Facebook this




Billy George
I'll echo the sentiment of why divide us? The cover photo used is in such poor taste it's obvious it's purpose was to be disrespectful. Painting every hunter/shooter with the same broad stroke is uninformed at best. Just because you cannot shoot well at a particular range does not mean that applies to another. I have friends that hunt within the accepted range. Guess what these guys go out the week before season zero their rifles to good enough with a few shoots and go hunting. I however shoot a few times a month and hundreds of rounds a year have absolute confidence in every shot I take. These guys miss deer and are happy when they get one down. But I take a deer at 916 with one shot and I'm the unethical one? There is a misunderstanding between the groups and excluding one isn't the answer. There is a big difference between a hunter that is shooting beyond his range and a longrange hunter.


i attached the photo they used. Again I don't think we should start a war over it as I think we need to stay unified. I am most diss appointed by this position though.

 

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Pyroducksx3

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They walk a line throught thier statement but the last paragraph is where they step over it.

The Club finds that long-range shooting takes unfair advantage of the game animal, effectively eliminates the natural capacity of an animal to use its senses and instincts to detect danger, and demeans the hunter/prey relationship in a way that diminishes the importance and relevance of the animal and the hunt. The Club urges all hunters to think carefully of the consequences of long-range shooting, whether hunting with a rifle, bow, muzzleloader, crossbow, or handgun, and not confuse the purposes and intent of long-range shooting with fair chase hunting.
 

Ridgerunner665

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When it comes down to it...they're right.

I mean the part about for it to truly be hunting you have to put yourself up against the superior senses of the game you're hunting...that's the whole point of archery hunting, and to me...archery hunting is more satisfying than shooting one at 1,000 yards with something that could be used as an anti-tank round...

Now before you drag me to the woodshed for saying that...listen to what I'm saying...because I think it's the same thing they're saying.

It's the intent...that is, maybe tipping the odds a little too far in your favor by using some of these REALLY big rounds that some use...with those, 1,000 yards becomes a fairly easy shot...and the game doesn't stand a chance....none.

Now I love to hunt...and I love to shoot, especially at longer ranges....so don't hang me for feeling the way I do.

But I would agree that maybe we have reached a point where some things are overkill.

Like they said....the range doesn't matter...100 yards or 1,000...it's the intent that counts.

I began long range hunting out of necessity...didn't, and still don't, have time to do the leg work that successful "normal" hunting involves....patterning the game, intensive scouting, etc.

I imagine most folks are in the same boat...work gets in the way of everything.

Fair chase hunting is all well and good...if you have a few thousand acres of land that you can get to know like the back of your hand, and have the time to do it.

After reading what I said myself...I think I only partly agree with them...that is, I understand their point...but what's a person to do?

Places to hunt are getting harder and harder to find...hunting undisturbed game is a thing of the past.
 
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Pyroducksx3

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So...... hanging a feeder and shooting it from a 150 yards is fooling the natural instincts of the animals. Or shooting at a running deer/elk/bear at 50 yards is more ethical? I practice to have the ability to harvest an animal given a situation. Im not goint to pass a shot I know I can make to get closer because that more fair to the animal and more sporting. By this logic using a scope a scoped rifle is cheating. I have nothing against people who hunt over feeder or bait or use trail cams or a guide. In todays political climate I dont agree that we should picking fights with eachother.r
 
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Broz

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Well if we are now going to twist this into "we should not use too big of a gun" then should we say that to be a true "archery hunter" you should hunt only with a recurve. Keep those unfair compound bows for target only? I hunt both archery and rifle. I prefer to use the best tool for the job to take the animal clean and quickly as possible at what ever distance. Maybe we should all use one gun and one bullet to hunt to make it fair. My point is where do you draw the line and to who's preferences of hunting?

No B&C are not right. Not at all!! They are dead wrong. Its about freedom and this is just another attack on our freedoms. By the way I think some semi trucks use too pig of engines and burn too much fuel. We should add some new laws to restrict them to small engines and lighter loads. Because I don't agree with the way they have progressed and are doing it today. Not really just demonstrating my point. You should never limit others back to what you believe or how you feel. It will then just be another loss of freedom.


Jeff
 

Broz

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So B&C is pointing a finger. Yet they keep records of the largest set of horns. Is that what hunting is all about? Biggest trophy set of horns? Just another point that morals and ethics can come in many flavors.

I grew up crawling into get a 30 to 40 yard shot at a white tail deer. That was the farther the 20 ga slug gun with a bead site would shoot. I wounded more deer then than I ever care to think about. Not to mention the fear that you instill into those animals when you are close in among them and wake them with the sound of a large gun. Today I shoot an elk and the rest of the herd looks around a bit and slowly walks away not even sure where that distant shot came from. Which is more ethical if we do truly care about the game animals? I am not saying these are all my personal opinions. I just think we should be aware there are many ways to look at things. The worst we can do is to say "That's wrong" just because it is not the way "We" do it.

Jeff
 

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That's true...and I'm not taking sides...just posted what came to mind when I read the article.

I've never used bait or feeders for bear or deer...but I will hunt over a natural food source if I find one.

And yes...your logic is sound where optics and such are concerned...sorta like all the hard feelings you'll stir up if you mention using a crossbow for archery in the wrong place, lol.

I do use a crossbow too...

Overall...it's just a sticky situation...

At the end of it though is one thing...no matter which side a person finds themself on...and that is, have some respect for the game being hunted, and the act of hunting itself.

I think if everybody does that...we'll be alright.
 

Ridgerunner665

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And Broz,

That's just it...where to draw the line?

I don't pretend to know...and no matter where the line was drawn...somebody would disagree with it, lol.

And my truck is governed at 65mph...which sucks!
 

Pyroducksx3

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When it comes down to it...they're right.

I mean the part about for it to truly be hunting you have to put yourself up against the superior senses of the game you're hunting...that's the whole point of archery hunting, and to me...archery hunting is more satisfying than shooting one at 1,000 yards with something that could be used as an anti-tank round...

Now before you drag me to the woodshed for saying that...listen to what I'm saying...because I think it's the same thing they're saying.

It's the intent...that is, maybe tipping the odds a little too far in your favor by using some of these REALLY big rounds that some use...with those, 1,000 yards becomes a fairly easy shot...and the game doesn't stand a chance....none.

Im going to have to say that a 1000 yard shot in field conditions isnt ever easy if you think that then you are one of the guys they are talking about. Small miscalculation even with "tank rounds" result in misses or wounded animals. Ive failed to recover only two animals,Ironically these were the closest shots . One was a bear that was in impossibly thick cover the other animal I failed to recover was a deer shot at 20 yards with my rifle. It jumped in front of me stood there and looked at me. I spun the rifle up and punched the trigger pulling my shot down. So I fail to see how me walking down a road is more sporting, fooling the animals senses than shooting from distance. The bear was at 100 yards and I was actually talking to my dad when he fed out into the clear cut so again another example of cutting hunting craft and super stealth. And it turns out I've recovered all my animals shot from 300 to 900 yards. Something about an animal relaxed and feeding and being able to get a solid shooting position possibly, why would that be unethical
 
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Pyroducksx3

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"Overall...it's just a sticky situation...

At the end of it though is one thing...no matter which side a person finds themself on...and that is, have some respect for the game being hunted, and the act of hunting itself."

Exactly so why draw a line when you dont have to, this the real question to the boone and crockett
 
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Ridgerunner665

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My tank round analogy assumed the shooter was capable and equipped to come up with the right firing solution...

It was a bad analogy, lol...and didn't really make the point I was trying to make...

And I agree about drawing lines...no need to do it.
 

Broz

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"The line" in hunting should be what ever the sportsman / hunter is willing to put the time into to be the best he can be. Whether he chooses to hunt with a 30-06 or a 50 BMG. From 50 yards or 1500. Maybe some think that we should use only big rifles to dispatch quicker and do away with smaller rifles? There will always be the need for us to self govern. I have to say that I see stronger governing going on, way more often, from the long range crowd than I ever have from the "if its in a pie plat at 50 its good crowd" or the " hey I can hit the ass of that deer as he runs through the thick timber crowd". The more one knows about long range hunting, the more he will realize how it is more similar to archery hunting. It takes dedication, commitment, practice, good equipment, as well as the need to know and exercise when NOT to shoot. The problem is, most all of the critics know very little about it. Just like the bunch that says " archery hunting if unethical" or this is wrong or that is bad.

Jeff
 

Ridgerunner665

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I guess my fear is that if too many people get too good at killing game...the game won't last very long.

Considering the disproportionate number of people versus the number of game and places to hunt them.

And yes....that's a bit selfish of me...I realize that.

I really don't have a problem with killing game however anyone wants to do it...but save some for me.

And that's the truth...


That's my official statement...and what I meant the first time...just didn't get it out right the first time.
 
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Ryan Avery

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It's a stupid scoring system ran by the old guard with really old roots! They should shut there mouths and support ALL legal hunting. All they are doing is segregating hunters from hunters. We can't survive this way. We are a dying breed boys! Oh and they pulled both of my post on FB! Pussy's
 

Broz

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I guess my fear is that if too many people get too good at killing game...the game won't last very long.

Considering the disproportionate number of people versus the number of game and places to hunt them....

OH, please!!!! I deal with all kinds of hunters here. Do I have to tell you which group wounds more animals? Animals that are not tagged and then they go after another?? I ask you think that out a little further please.

Jeff
 

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"The line" in hunting should be what ever the sportsman / hunter is willing to put the time into to be the best he can be. Whether he chooses to hunt with a 30-06 or a 50 BMG. From 50 yards or 1500. Maybe some think that we should use only big rifles to dispatch quicker and do away with smaller rifles? There will always be the need for us to self govern. I have to say that I see stronger governing going on, way more often, from the long range crowd than I ever have from the "if its in a pie plat at 50 its good crowd" or the " hey I can hit the ass of that deer as he runs through the thick timber crowd". The more one knows about long range hunting, the more he will realize how it is more similar to archery hunting. It takes dedication, commitment, practice, good equipment, as well as the need to know and exercise when NOT to shoot. The problem is, most all of the critics know very little about it. Just like the bunch that says " archery hunting if unethical" or this is wrong or that is bad.

Jeff
Yes sir...self governing...

All well said and I agree completely!
 
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Broz

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It's a stupid scoring system ran by the old guard with really old roots! They should shut there mouths and support ALL legal hunting. All they are doing is segregating hunters from hunters. We can't survive this way. We are a dying breed boys! Oh and they pulled both of my post on FB! Pussy's


You are correct.

Jeff
 

Ridgerunner665

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Broz,
You took what I said wrong...I didn't mean I'd rather see them wounding game...I meant I'd hate to see the day that the game was gone from too much hunting...

Like you said...self governing...
 

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So B&C is pointing a finger. Yet they keep records of the largest set of horns. Is that what hunting is all about? Biggest trophy set of horns? Just another point that morals and ethics can come in many flavors.....

Jeff


That my first thought too.

Just another old organization with their own agendas.

The game departments will regulate the hunting pressures.

Less than 1% of hunters are long range capable (guess/opinion).
 

Broz

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Broz,
You took what I said wrong...I didn't mean I'd rather see them wounding game...I meant I'd hate to see the day that the game was gone from too much hunting...

Like you said...self governing...



I understood. I guess I was not clear. Game numbers will be less effected by clean kills, than by those that wound and go for another from poorly executed or fast shots. My personal experience has been more clean kills come from standing game and well executed long range shots than from get close and ass shoot because it is all you got after you spook them.
 

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I've quit most so called "Sportsmans" groups as there is an element of anti-hunting in all of them. They want our bucks, but don't really like us shooting "their" bucks. They fear the individual mind set of the serious hunter. It's tough to BS folks that have worn out more boots, than the so called experts have read books.

The anti's will profess they could support more primitive styles of "fair chase" but look at their comments on hog hunters using a blade and hounds, or snare a wolf. Even in our own ranks shooting LR chucks and coyotes with a .338 RUM and it raises hackles. One thread over at LRH with a video tastefully done of an LR coyote kill, brought out the "where's the fun in that" crowd.

Their picture says it all, that's so misrepresents the subject you have to know you're not having a reasonable discussion. The fact is we have better technology and it produces better overall quick humane kills across the spectrum.

This is marketing, with the intent of getting money from some where. I'll never buy one of their books, pins, patches, or memberships again. They have no problem taking the dirty old money from those producing the tools to LRH. If you wish to have an effect write their sponsors that take out full page ads in their magazine, and ask them what's up. I have a friend that subscribes If I get a chance I'll look at who they are.
 

Ridgerunner665

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Hunting pressure is different here in the east...the population is so much denser (people)...

If my fears seem unfounded...it could be because of that...seasons are regulated and the deer do seem to be doing ok...maybe it is an irrational fear.
 

Ridgerunner665

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I understood. I guess I was not clear. Game numbers will be less effected by clean kills, than by those that wound and go for another from poorly executed or fast shots. My personal experience has been more clean kills come from standing game and well executed long range shots than from get close and ass shoot because it is all you got after you spook them.
Ok...I understand what you were saying now...and yes, careful, well planned and executed shots always work better.

I didn't mean to imply otherwise...that's not what I was saying.
 

Ridgerunner665

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My way with words isn't working today...

But the part about self governing....that is all I've tried to stress in this entire discussion.
 
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Broz

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This might be a good place to offer what is taught in two long range schools I know of and have attended. And I will quote as closely as it was presented by the instructors.

The Defensive Edge School and I will quote Shawn Carlock teaching the class.

And I quote.

" If you don't feel you will be completely amazed if you miss,, Don't take that shot at a game animal"

And what I teach in my Cold Bore Academy Class. "Jeff Brozovich"

"Practice and know your effective range you can stay within the vitals of the animal you are hunting with every shot.,, If you are not completely confident you will be in there do not shoot"
 

Broz

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I just also posted this to their fb page.

Just came to me? Years ago Leupold introduced their line of "Long Range" Scopes and many employed the Reticle named "Boone & Crockett" These scopes even proudly wore the B&C Gold Medallion of "The Boone & Crocket Club" Hmmmmm, I wonder how much royalty B&C gets from the sale of these "Long Range" scopes? Seems B&C might just be courting a new sorce of money and they will change their standing to attract funds from where ever they can get it. Shame Shame B&C. I will be contacting all your sponsors of the equipment and gear I use to discuss our future.

My first post to their fb page.

Agreeing with this stand from B&C will only come from those that know very little about the well practiced sport of long range hunting. The people that engage in long range hunting are very self governed and live by the highest set of morals and ethics. I have done both for many years. I don't have to tell you who wounds more game. A fast shot at spooked game from being inside their element is what B&C is willing to accept. But those that accept this will throw stones at a guy that can read conditions and take an animal with one well placed shot while the rest of the herd does not even spook and slowly walks away. Clean, fast ethical kills. Get educated. Shame on B&C for being a dividing force among the sportsmen. Whether it be a rifle, bow, handgun or what ever is legal take. We should be united not opinionated and casting stones into our own.
 

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I tried to like your post, to show them there are others supporting this view but couldnt find it.
 

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They are there...I just "liked" both posts

Scroll down till the discussion with the pic posted in the OP of this thread....with the missiles.
 
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Ridgerunner665

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Should post that link in the comments...with the quote.

Edit: I see Broz is on it like white on rice...
 
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Ridgerunner665

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One more attempt at explaining myself...I hate doing that, lol...but I think I may owe it to you guys....I came here to learn, and by golly I already have...I have learned that you guys are just as serious about preserving game as I am...and that you are not a bunch of redneck hillbillies out poaching deer all year long, this was an automatic assumption that stems from the things I've seen over the years of hunting...you guys didn't deserve that, and I shouldn't have assumed that any of you were...in no way, shape, form, or fashion.

Please read the explanations in the quote below...in red..I hope this clears it up, I'd really like you guys to understand where I was coming from...and know that I'm not in any way anti LR hunting....but I am very much a game conservation minded hunter, and I'm not ashamed of that...we gotta save some for tomorrow.



When it comes down to it...they're right.

I mean the part about for it to truly be hunting you have to put yourself up against the superior senses of the game you're hunting...that's the whole point of archery hunting, and to me...archery hunting is more satisfying than shooting one at 1,000 yards with something that could be used as an anti-tank round...

Now before you drag me to the woodshed for saying that...listen to what I'm saying...because I think it's the same thing they're saying.

It's the intent...that is, maybe tipping the odds a little too far in your favor by using some of these REALLY big rounds that some use...with those, 1,000 yards becomes a fairly easy shot...and the game doesn't stand a chance....none. When I said this...I had envisioned people out shooting deer mercilessly and at will...shooting and killing everything within 1,500 yards in every direction...my point here was that I didn't like the idea of making the poaching any easier for them.... and I know you all agree with me on that...and I now realize that the aspect of poaching never entered into your mind in this discussion...and from there the misunderstanding just compounded...I couldn't help but think of poachers though, there are so many around home...give them serious equipment and the knowledge to use it and its like I said, the deer wouldn't stand a chance...the mistake I made was assuming that poaching was on your minds too...I sincerely apologize for making that assumption...I realize now that this crowd is above that.

Now I love to hunt...and I love to shoot, especially at longer ranges....so don't hang me for feeling the way I do.

But I would agree that maybe we have reached a point where some things are overkill. Same as above...any rifle, when used by an ethical hunter who knows when to shoot and when not to shoot is perfectly acceptable.

Like they said....the range doesn't matter...100 yards or 1,000...it's the intent that counts. ​Range doesn't matter...ethics and morals do.

I began long range hunting out of necessity...didn't, and still don't, have time to do the leg work that successful "normal" hunting involves....patterning the game, intensive scouting, etc.

I imagine most folks are in the same boat...work gets in the way of everything.

Fair chase hunting is all well and good...if you have a few thousand acres of land that you can get to know like the back of your hand, and have the time to do it.

After reading what I said myself...I think I only partly agree with them...that is, I understand their point...but what's a person to do?

Places to hunt are getting harder and harder to find...hunting undisturbed game is a thing of the past.
 
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Ridgerunner665

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Also...I'm the only LR hunter I know of in my area...so I don't have any like minded individuals to associate with.

I have made some progress in converting one guy that I hunt with...but he's a work in progress.

And I envy the fact that poaching never entered your minds...

I'm proud to be here among such people!
 
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Broz

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This is B&C's reply to my post about the Leupold B&C long range reticle.

http://www.boone-crockett.org/news/news_leupold.asp?area=news

I quote "It wasn't our goal to build an aiming system for accurate, ethical, long-range shooting. It was our responsibility."

So it was their responsibility to build a reticle for long range ethical kills??? WTF??? Is that not contradicting everything they said?
 

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Ridgerunner, debating is fine. This was a rare example of people actually explaining themselves and the others listning and actually trying to understand the othersides view. Most "debates" are actually people just yelling at each other. It was pleasant to have a real debate for once. I hope boone and crockett will be as receptive. I dont wamt to hate them I want to us to unite to promote ethical shooting and sportsmanship.
 

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But as broz pointed out, in his recent post about thier reticle they seem more interested in dodging questions and covering bases then taking a good retrospective look at thier statement and how it has affected sportsman as a whole.
 

Ridgerunner665

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Ridgerunner, debating is fine. This was a rare example of people actually explaining themselves and the others listning and actually trying to understand the othersides view. Most "debates" are actually people just yelling at each other. It was pleasant to have a real debate for once. I hope boone and crockett will be as receptive. I dont wamt to hate them I want to us to unite to promote ethical shooting and sportsmanship.

Well I just wanted to make sure everybody knew where I stood...and I'm standing right there with you.
 

Ridgerunner665

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But as broz pointed out, in his recent post about thier reticle they seem more interested in dodging questions and covering bases then taking a good retrospective look at thier statement and how it has affected sportsman as a whole.


Yeah...B&C looks to have won this round...the Facebook discussion is mostly arguing about it now...as was predicted, divided on the issue.

Question is...whats the best course of action to counter it?
 

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This is getting rich. They have been called out and continue to back peddle and change their statement.

They stated...

This is not about yardage, this is about intent. Please read our position statement. http://bit.ly/1pOy2E7

Leupold Optics has the technology to build scopes that could reach out to 1000 yards plus, but they haven't. The B&C reticle was developed in conjunction with us in 2004 in an attempt to address the inherent problems with long range shooting.

I replied to this with the following statement and information.

So this Leupold Mark 4 "Long Range/Tactical" scope in an 8.5x25x50 configuration is not made for shooting long distances including those over 1K yards? You are wrong.

http://www.leupold.com/tac.../scopes/mark-4-ert-riflescopes/

The person running their FakeBook page needs to do some research before posting.

Jay
 

Pyroducksx3

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I dont know about won, they are actually looking pretty foolish right now on that fb repky on jeffs reticle. They are condriticting themselves all over the place. Its getting intetesting
 

Ridgerunner665

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Here is my contribution...hope I did better there than I did here.

Ethics and morals are not measured in yards...they can only be found in the heart of a hunter...and if that hunter can cleanly harvest his game at 1,500 yards...that is all that matters. Do you think cave men had this debate when they figured out how to make spears, or when they progressed to bow and arrow...if they had decided it was unethical to use anything but their bare hands we likely wouldn't be here today...Sneaking up on a deer/elk, etc. isn't easy....neither is an 800 yard shot...both take skill, patience, determination...I've lost 2 deer that I've shot in my life (41 years) and one of them was shot at about 50 feet with a 25-06...looked for a week, stayed out of work and everything to look for that deer...never did find him...the other was a long range shot (803 yards) but this time I did find the deer later....both were my fault, and I learned from the mistakes made both times and haven't repeated either one since...18 years now and no lost/injured animals...from 15 yards with a crossbow to 1,200 yards with a rifle....it all comes down to knowing when to shoot and when to let it go....regardless of the range.
 
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Ridgerunner665

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I dont know about won, they are actually looking pretty foolish right now on that fb repky on jeffs reticle. They are condriticting themselves all over the place. Its getting intetesting

I retract my previous statement...Jeff's got em on their heels, lol.
 

MudRunner2005

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I think B&C needs to get their head out of his ass and stop hanging out with ole Moonbeam and the liberal hippie tree-humpers.

Yall all know I cut to the chase and don't sugar-coat things...

So, that's how I feel.

Oh, and Jeff......I don't have facebook, but someone was kind enough to share some of the back-and-forth on the other forum.

Keep up the good work, bud!
 
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Franklin

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It's just like any other politics...you get some mother fucker runnin things for more than a few years and them under the table bribes start looking real good
and before you know it, the sport is in the same situation this country is in, the government telling everybody what they need and how to do it, instead of the
states and people governing themselves. B&c did nothing but hurt themselves with this stunt.
 

Ryan Avery

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I think Billy George needs to get his head out of his ass and stop hanging out with ole Moonbeam and the liberal hippie tree-humpers.

Yall all know I cut to the chase and don't sugar-coat things...

So, that's how I feel.

Oh, and Jeff......I don't have facebook, but someone was kind enough to share some of the back-and-forth on the other forum.

Keep up the good work, bud!

Billy is also Pyroducksx3 on here. I don't know you but I know him and he is far from having his head up his ass!

 

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