Molying necks and annealing after every fire.

Blobby159

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It comes in a small tub filled with beads. Then you can buy just the powder to replenish. You sinply dip them in the beads 4 or 5 times and they are coated. I then wipe off the outside of the neck as I dont want it in my chamber, powder charge and seat the bullet.
"Broz", you have been instrumental in my using that Imperial Dry Lube powder (graphite??) in my reloading regime but I do things slightly different than you around the case necks that, I feel, is more economical with the powder and also doesn't then also require a wipe-off of each and every case neck outer surface once the bullet has been seated.
I simply dip a cotton bud tip in the granules to pick up a good load of the dry lube, then insert into each case neck and twiddle/twirl just a little to spread some of the powder lube off onto the inside of the case neck, but ONLY onto that surface... Then, like you, I also now dip the tail end of my projectiles, each one, as I load into the powder-filled cases and seat. Sometimes it STILL needs a bit of a wipe round the case necks, but it is not obligatory and I am then certain that:-
a). My dry lube powder lasts longer
b). The dry lube gets to be THOROUGHLY spread over the inner surface of the case necks I involve in the process....

Kind Regards,
Blobbs...


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Ladd

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"Broz", you have been instrumental in my using that Imperial Dry Lube powder (graphite??) in my reloading regime but I do things slightly different than you around the case necks that, I feel, is more economical with the powder and also doesn't then also require a wipe-off of each and every case neck outer surface once the bullet has been seated.
I simply dip a cotton bud tip in the granules to pick up a good load of the dry lube, then insert into each case neck and twiddle/twirl just a little to spread some of the powder lube off onto the inside of the case neck, but ONLY onto that surface... Then, like you, I also now dip the tail end of my projectiles, each one, as I load into the powder-filled cases and seat. Sometimes it STILL needs a bit of a wipe round the case necks, but it is not obligatory and I am then certain that:-
a). My dry lube powder lasts longer
b). The dry lube gets to be THOROUGHLY spread over the inner surface of the case necks I involve in the process....

Kind Regards,
Blobbs...


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Sounds like a pretty good method for sure.


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Blobby159

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do you guys wear gloves when handling your bullets during reloading ?
Non... But then I am spending a lot of time washing my hands anyway at this moment in our World History so I am not too much bothered by getting somewhat blackened fingies during this short term process.... Graphite powder harmed no man in such minuscule amounts.
All good fun!...


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Ladd

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Non... But then I am spending a lot of time washing my hands anyway at this moment in our World History so I am not too much bothered by getting somewhat blackened fingies during this short term process.... Graphite powder harmed no man in such minuscule amounts.
All good fun!...


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I think he’s referring to the oil from your fingers although the graphite does seam to get everywhere.


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jimbires

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Ladd , you're correct . I'm a mechanic , my hands are in all kinds of stuff daily . I can't wear gloves to work in , they make me all thumbs . I think I'm going to try wearing latex gloves when I handle my bullets though .

I thought I had this cold weld solved .
I never use Hornady brass . I did get some to use with my one rifle , it's all I could get at the time . I've ran a couple ladders , and seating tests . yesterday I started to pull apart this ammo that didn't get shot , it's not the load I'm going to use . I can see the graphite at the neck bullet junction , so I didn't forget to dip them . these bullets are stuck . I had to seat them deeper to break free , before I could pull them . some just took a little nudge , others really popped when the bullet moved . I pulled apart 20 rounds , all showed some sign of being stuck . I'll say they've been loaded 6 months max probably more like 3-4 months . I wonder if different brands of brass cold weld easier than others ? could it be a brass and bullet reaction ? could it be my hands ?
 

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@Josip89
I can't read anything in that image - too small, and I also don't trust posts on a forum without verifying, there's too much junk out there. I have seen posts on this topic on Accurate Shooter that were determined incorrect after the fact too...
 
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Blobby159

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The chemicals in people's sweat does change, person to person, as do the relativities of the probably important ones in this situation like the salt content and the acidity/alkalinity. Also the alloy mixes used by manufacturers to make the brass that gets used in our rifle and pistol cases can and will alter - as too will the surface metals of our various makes of bullets.

Therefor the possibilities are there that, with an element of bad luck thrown in (and a propensity to have sweaty hands/fingers which will change with the environmental weather), with all other things being equal and no barriers bring used between bullets and internal case necks, some (but NOT all) of us will make rounds where an element of corrosive (galvanic) chemistry WILL Exist between these surfaces...

My apologies "Jimbires" regarding the misunderstanding I had as to the reasons you were asking about wearing gloves here. Now, thinking about what I have written immediately above here, I can see your reasoning in that question was NOT cos of the coating dust. Ha! Trust me to get the wrong impressions!.


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Ladd

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So this refers to the amount of time from neck sizing to seating the bullet, not the amount of time between completing the load to firing the load. Not much data here in which to draw a conclusion from but interesting none the less. I wonder what twice the seating force means in terms of neck tension and I suppose brass that has been neck sized without seating a bullet can spring back some over time. I don't see how it would harden without something acting on it though. This may be a test you or I can do. Maybe I'll try to this winter.
 
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Brendan

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Interesting, but that also says nothing about brass or age hardening. In fact there are tests that show brass continues to relax over time (see below).

Here's the other thing: That's one anecdote with nothing to back it up. Was the brass annealed properly, or was it work hardened from multiple reloads? Just neck sized down, or neck sized and expanded? Expanded then neck sized? Did he actually measure neck tension with a pin gauge to verify? Are we seeing residual springback? Tarnishing as mentioned below? A friction issue that gets mitigated by dipping in dry lube? One interesting comment was this:

"It’s an assumption to leap from an increase in seating force to changes in brass, at least without additional data, or control for friction. It is difficult to accept the Editor’s comments on brass behavior without hearing from a metallurgist – these comments aren’t in line with typical behavior of metals."

Some more "anecdotes" which is why I never trust stuff like this unless someone has real data to back it up instead of just a forum post:

The topic of cartridge brass age hardening with time keeps coming up. I am posting this for for second time to try to end the subject. Personal opinion and observation by a few people are not facts.

You posed a question on our web site in regard to C260 cartridge brass age hardening with time.
The properties of copper based alloys (without plating) do not change based on "shelf life".
The surface condition may be impacted by storage conditions; material will tarnish over time.
If the stains become significant enough that could have a negative impact on formability.

GBC Metals dba Olin Brass
And another one: Stress Relaxation over time, not hardening...


"These techniques, which utilize the so-called Larson-Miller Parameters, are based on the fact that the % remaining stress in a metal under test tends to decrease in a linear fashion when plotted against time on a logarithmic scale"
 
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Ladd

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Interesting, but that also says nothing about brass or age hardening. In fact there are tests that show brass continues to relax over time (see below).

Here's the other thing: That's one anecdote with nothing to back it up. Was the brass annealed properly, or was it work hardened from multiple reloads? Just neck sized down, or neck sized and expanded? Expanded then neck sized? Are we seeing residual springback?

Some more "anecdotes" which is why I never trust stuff like this unless someone has real data to back it up instead of just a forum post:



And another one: Stress Relaxation over time, not hardening...


"These techniques, which utilize the so-called Larson-Miller Parameters, are based on the fact that the % remaining stress in a metal under test tends to decrease in a linear fashion when plotted against time on a logarithmic scale"
All good points. I’m a believer in first hand info by far and don’t subscribe to much if it’s not.

It would be a simple enough test sometime. Not now though. Hunts are eminent. I’m taking my 2.5 week old reloads after Mr. Bigelope.

I’m skeptical but interested to see if there’s a change in ES. I’m a scientist, why not. Both samples of brass I will use will be 3x 6.5 PRC ADG brass. Annealed and identical in every way with the one only exception.

Bets can be placed now, send money to LRO. $20 minimums.


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Brendan

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One more while we're at it:


"The short answer is that correctly annealed and stored brass cartridge cases will not age harden over any practical time frame."

Note: My comments have nothing to do with loaded rounds and the potential for long term cold welding or some form of potential corrosion brought on by dissimilar metals, potential chemicals in certain older powders, etc.
 

Ladd

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I have (10) pieces of 3x 6.5 PRC ADG brass I just fired recently. I’ll prep and size half by this weekend then let them sit. Then later this year I’ll do the rest, load them all and go test.

I anneal after every fire. These will be too.





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I haven't found the imperial dry lube to be effective at stopping the cold welding. Call me crazy but I use imperial sizing lube and they don't weld.
 

Josip89

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I am also for more testing.
I also read alot about reloading ,but I agree ,You can not just brlive anything You read.
I would also do some testing when new gear arriwe.
 

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I did read a very interesting comment related to the use of Arbor presses with seating pressure force measurement. I don't think I can find it now to quote, so I'll paraphrase:

"75% of the force difference you see between different seating pressures is due to different prep of the inside of the neck. Brush the inside of the neck with two different nylon brushes, or brush differently, and you'll see a difference. Whether or not this impacts ES/SD is another story."

I am personally very curious to play around with an arbor press at some point, but remember there are multiple factors at play:

* Brass Hardness
* Brass Neck Thickness and Trim Length/Chamfer
* Neck Inner Diameter (Measured by a pin gauge)
* Brass Neck Surface Prep, lube or not

Don't think I'm forgetting anything, but all of those impact "Neck Tension" or the grip on the bullet. If you want to test the impact of one, you have to do your best to control the others.

For me - way to close to hunting season now. I'm running what I have. I'll probably do some more testing this winter.
 

Josip89

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I understand that.
My season is not good by now.
At the moment I dont have long range rig.
 

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Not sure if this is anything but I watched a video years ago with David Tubbs. Think that was his name talking about case welding. His fix was at the time was to take ammo that had sit for a while that hadn’t be shot and put them back in the bullet seater and bump them back a .002 or so As to break free any weld that had formed. I want to say that he also loaded long and seated them right before a match. I’ve never really paid attention to this subject but I haven’t really had older ammunition that I shot at extended range. would be a good test though. I have though done this on old ammo before shooting Because of his video.
 
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Blobby159

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At least there appears to be a sensible, possibly quite effective remedy to this bullet welding phenomenon eh?... Most of my shooting isn't at extended distances so that is perhaps why I haven't really noted anything untoward to date and when I have had the occasional 'odd' miss at 1,000+ yds I have likely put it down to operator malfunction rather than any actual PHYSICAL abnormality giving rise to it??...

Now that I have been forewarned though - thanks Guys - I will do this .001" bullet "Bump" the day before and shoot my long range loads that I normally make up a stock of and store!.. Not now!

I will now ALSO alter my M.O. and not make up large batches that I keep in my ammunition locker, but only make what I know I will shoot plus a few extras for those 'just in case' moments.... A bit of a bind (pun completely unintentional but amusing ) but my recent visit to a 1,000yd target shoot when I'd made up the necessary rounds just the day before - WITH the much talked about "Dry Neck Lube" - has proven to me that there is truth in this somewhere. My scores were excellent that day, and despite the wavering 8->12 m.p.h. almost full on crosswind my very first card was 49x50 with 5 V-Bulls and the lack of vertical dispersion was heart warming for my efforts...

When this line of conversation started I was a 100% Doubting Thomas as to the benefits of a dry-lube (or any other) barrier twixt projectile and inner case neck, and said as much, but Great Guys like 'Tumbleweed', 'Ladd' and 'Broz' (and others not mentioned here, apologies!) have slowly but continuously chipped away at my faulted reasonings so that NOW I am a complete and Grateful (VERY Grateful) convert to the dry lube touch, even to the extent of having my own slight bent on the adoption of this additional reloading process step with the use of the tip of a Q-Tip loaded with that Marvelous 'Imperial Dry Lube' powder rubbed up and down in each case neck....

Actual Results in the field have convinced me that in this instance - as in several others since I have joined this Great Forum of amazing shooters who share their experiences - I know not a lot and others here have the floor!!!...

To those fellas I specifically mentioned here (above) , and to many others that have given of their experiences to get me up there in amongst the better exponents of the rifle, I must offer my Most Sincerest Thank Yous!!! ....... I hope you realise quite how happy and grateful your assistance here and elsewhere has made me,... Truly!!!

Kindest, Sincerest Regards,
Blobby159


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BClrh

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Call me crazy but I use imperial sizing lube and they don't weld.

i've been using Imperial sizing wax for at least 20 years, it seems to work pretty well.
Do you mean for sizing brass? I use it for that as well, but I also put a thin coat on the bearing surface of my bullets before seating and no more welding and very smooth seating.
 

Dave Wilson

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i use it for both, sizing the brass and coating the bullets. i've started experimenting coating the inside of the neck as well but can't say i've done that enough to determine if it helps or not
 

Ladd

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Update on Sized Neck Shelf Life Test: I annealed (10) pieces of 3X 6.5 PRC brass and sized (5) of them today and dated the cases. I’ll let these sit for a while then get back to them and the other (5) later.



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Josip89

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One question for You all.
Dry lube,where you put it ,on case neck or the buller or the both.

Thank you
 

Ladd

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One question for You all.
Dry lube,where you put it ,on case neck or the buller or the both.

Thank you
I dunk the case to the bottom of the shoulder 3-4x. The case neck seams to get a pretty good film in it. I have dunked the bullet in too but I haven’t been consistently with that.

One thing is to make sure is that the container with the applicator balls has a good amount of dry lube in it. Don’t skimp on the dry lube.


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Blobby159

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I am a recent convert to this dry lubing but have found a noticeable improvement on the long range vertical dispersion of my bullet fall on the 1,000yd commercial range here, so I am fully intending to keep it up indefinitely..

In Answer to your question"Josip89" I started out like "Ladd" by dunking the case neck into my wee pot of heavily graphited beads and noted that when it came to tidying up afterwards by wiping round the case-necks with a clean, dry cloth, there was quite a lot of the powder on my clean cloth. That seems a tad wasteful to me so I have altered the way I apply the graphite powder such that ONLY the needy internal neck surfaces get a coating. I do that using the fluffy end of a Q-Tip that I dip regularly into the beads and THEN apply the powder with rubbing said around the inside of the neck.

I have recently also experimented with dipping the bullet rear half into the graphite beads immediately before setting it into the case neck and seating. But I am noticing - again - quite a lot of wasted powder at the rim of the case neck, accumulated where it has been pushed up the bullet rear end to where the seating operation stops. This again needed to be cleaned off after seating the bullets and I am now seriously considering ignoring that step in the operation and ONLY applying the graphite dry lube to the internal case neck surface with the Q-Tip.

I will be testing whether or not this is a fully effective process by coating say 20 bullets with and leaving 20 bullets 'bare' and shooting them on the same 1,000yd range. If the vertical dispersion doesn't differ measurably I shall desist from the bullet base dipping but most certainly continue with the inside neck coating.

Hope this helps with your decision 'Josip89'?

Kind Regards,
Blobbs....


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Blobby159

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It helps
I hope You will post Yours test results soon.

Thank You all
Good, glad that helps... When I do this test I will report here, but it might not be very immediate. I have a variety of hospital appointments to attend in the next fortnight and each one takes up a full day in travelling there and back as I am driving and staying as far away from Public Transport as I am able given the current, very tenuous situation. But be assured my friend, as soon as I have a decent bit of time and can get to my Commercial Range (100 mile round trip) I will post and ensure you are informed...
Kind Regards,
Blobbs...


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Cold weld-
Just another bit of information after reading this forum. Not that I believe everything I have read on a forum or the internet. Anyway, I wrote a few emails and eventually ended up calling Berger technical support and talked to someone who was very knowledgeable in the reloading area. To make a long story short, years ago the guy was part of the design team. Seemed like an older guy whom just sit around answering phone calls about a subject he cared about. To be honest I wish I would have wrote down more information. The gentleman seemed very knowledgeable about the subject and during our conversation I asked him about this cold weld — if it was real and if there were any fixes. I didn’t mention any type of correction that I heard about or otherwise. I basically let him do the talking.
Well, this fella (think his name was Bob) went on like a scientist about metal reaction, water and corrosion between two dissimilar metals. Even talked about an experience he had with his fathers older ammunition years ago. Anyway, his solution was graphite powder, which he personally bought for his reloading application and he also talked about molly-coated bullets and their benefits both (good and bad) I gathered he was more of a fan of the dipping his brass in the Graphite powder than the molly coated. He only did the brass. Anyway, he said it would not affect anything and would not affect bullet interference/bite and/or neck tension, which was my concern. He talked about how it helped prevent cold weld Because it created a barrier Of sorts between the two dissimilar metals. Be honest he talked a lot, thru a lot bigger words at me but that is the jist of Our conversation.
For those that would like to inquire more about the subject or others the below link has the phone number of the Berger Tech team phone number.

Closing, the Berger technician I talked to on the technically question (Cold weld) was very down to earth and very friendly. I enjoyed our 20 minute conversation. End the end I thanked him and he said this was a good question. Great customer service goes a long way.
I hope this helps some concerns like it did mine on adding a foreign substance to a bullet on an expensive gun.

 

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Good, glad that helps... When I do this test I will report here, but it might not be very immediate. I have a variety of hospital appointments to attend in the next fortnight and each one takes up a full day in travelling there and back as I am driving and staying as far away from Public Transport as I am able given the current, very tenuous situation. But be assured my friend, as soon as I have a decent bit of time and can get to my Commercial Range (100 mile round trip) I will post and ensure you are informed...
Kind Regards,
Blobbs...


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I also look forward to your results. It occurred to me there is also a third test option. Why not test just coating the bullet and not coating the neck? It could be the easiest application method if it works as well as the other two options.

Just some food for thought.

Joe
 

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I built my entire reloading setup around the ability to load quickly and accurately because having time is always my biggest problem.

So I don't have batches sitting around, what I'll do is do all my brass prep - clean or tumble, anneal, size, clean, trim/chamfer/deburr - and sometimes even prime, and put it in boxes ready to go with my notes on that batch of brass. Then, I can come down and just have to charge powder and seat bullets for what I know I''m going to use which I can do in under an hour.
That's what I do, it works a treat. And I have a seater die for each projectile/cartridge combo to further minimise my reloading time.
 

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I also look forward to your results. It occurred to me there is also a third test option. Why not test just coating the bullet and not coating the neck? It could be the easiest application method if it works as well as the other two options.

Just some food for thought.

Joe
Yes Joe you are right there, and I had half way considered that too. I will combine into my testing and get back to you once complete. Thanks for that considered feedback mate, I appreciated that!!..

ATB,
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I also look forward to your results. It occurred to me there is also a third test option. Why not test just coating the bullet and not coating the neck? It could be the easiest application method if it works as well as the other two options.

Just some food for thought.

Joe
Hi again Joe and 'josip89'... I said I would get back to you once I had tested whether simply coating the bullet back end (the bit that gets seated into the case-neck) would give any different effect(s) to either dipping the whole case into the Graphited Beads then wiping off the excess once the seating had been completed, or alternatively - as I had been doing - coating the inside of the necks alone with the application of the Dry Lube Media to the inside of the case necks by using a loaded Q-Tip end...

Well I did a limited test of 25 rounds of each of that three options of dry lube application prior to bullet seating and, from my limited results I can say categorically that it made NO Difference whatsoever!!.. Thus, from now forward I shall be carrying out dry lube application to the bullet shank come inside case neck juncture simply by multiple dipping of my projectiles each time into the Graphite covered Beads just prior to the seating operation...

Thanks for suggesting that option Joe as a further simplification of the anti-bullet-weld AND evening out of the bullet pull forces on firing the rounds. I shall be using THIS method - dipping the back end of my bullets into the graphite beads - though I may go back to my earlier use of the Q-Tip loaded with graphite as THAT method completely negates having to tidy up the - admittedly small - buildup of lubricant powder just at the very top edge of the necks, where the neck rubbing up the bullet as it is being seated pushes up some of the graphite and allows it to collect as a small ring of powder there. I guess in reality it could be left, but the possibility of getting small amounts of that slippery powder migrating down to the sides of my cases makes me slightly uneasy, both from the desire to be tidy as much as the wish not to interfere with the case to chamber wall grip at the very moment of touching off my (almost always, stout) rounds, however anal that may sound!! Ha!

Kind Regards,
Blobbs...


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Blobby159

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Thanks for the update! I will try this myself in the future.

Joe
My pleasure Joe.... Purely from the point of view of lower physical input and less steps in the reloading cycle I think my idea with the Q-Tip coating just the inside of each case necks is the better option as there is then no requirement for an after process wipe round...

Just a random thought here but I believe that maybe - just maybe? - the reason for my lack of belief in the need to case-neck (dry) lube might have been cos I have never bothered cleaning the carbon deposits from the inside of the necks in my reloading procedures. That may be why I hadn't really experienced any appreciable bullet to inside neck "Cold Weld" problems in my stored THEN shot rounds. The carbon boundary likely kept at least the majority of this phenomenon at bay in my hand loads... Maybe??.. Now I clean my cases - ALL of my spent cases - with a large(ish) volume, table top, Ultra-Sonic Cleaner device that former (not originally much considered) lining of carbon deposits now is no more and bare metal to metal surface contact occurs in all my reloads, so that now, the "Dry-Lube step is very much a requirement and my shot fall certainly benefits from the application of said..

Just a thought, but quite possibly relevant to me here!?


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I have a couple of questions for all of you that also dip case necks in graphite before seating.

I have just recently added dipping case necks in Imperial Dry Neck Lube right before seating bullets.

Previously, I have always used the Dry neck lube in the necks when sizing, but I never dipped the necks in the dry lube again just prior to seating. With that said, I just finished developing a new load this past Spring, and once the load was finalized, I loaded up 100 rds with the one addition of dipping the case neck in Dry Neck Lube before seating bullets.

Questions:

1) When adding the additional step of dipping case necks in dry neck lube right before seating bullets, when you fire these new rounds for the first time, do you notice a decrease in MV of about 20 fps vs the same load (or barrel) prior to doing this? I have a suspicion that the first few rounds with extra graphite in the neck coat the inside of the barrel and lower MV a little bit.

2) Do any of you bulk load .010" long, then set the bullet to final seating depth just prior to using them? This is what I have been trying out, but not sure if I have very meaningful data on the results at this point.

3) Would the barrel heating up after 2-3 shots cause this drop in MV of about 20 fps? I don't think I have observed this ever before...


I went out to do final chrono with magnetospeed yesterday on my new load, and also wanted to compare two groups of 5 EA to compare shelf life/possible bullet sticking over time. I made sure the Magnetospeed was on very tight and also used electrical tape as a backup, so I know it did not move on the barrel. My barrel is a 26" Rem 700 LR factory varmint barrel in 7mm RM firing a 162 ELDX.

The 1st group was 5 rounds which were loaded .010" long back in early June 2020 and then set to correct seating depth yesterday morning before I went out to shoot. The 2nd group was also initially loaded .010" long back in early June 2020, but had been set to correct seating depth around mid July 2020, and have not been touched since. These rounds have been stored in an ammo box inside a large plastic Plano Ammo Can with the rubber seal gasket at room temperature in a dark closet. The only variable between the two groups, was when they were set to the correct seating depth: Group #1 was fresh and Group#2 was almost 4 months old.

Based on prior data/experience, I expected the load to chrono at about 2998 fps with the magnetospeed. I took about 2 minutes between shots on average, and I took a 5 minute break after shot #6 and #8, and a 10 minute break after shot #9 for the barrel to cool and sit in shade. I was in the sun and it was 79 F. The barrel has 404 rounds on it now and it was a fouled barrel. After shot #2, the MV seemed to stabilize around 2976 fps. I have tested some of the loads before after they have sat for several weeks to several months by seating them deeper, and some seat smooth with no resistance, but I have noticed a few that have a very, very slight noise/feel resistance break loose. It was much more noticeable on prior/different loads I tested from last year that did not have dry neck lube added to the inside of the necks right before seating and had set for about 1.5 years (I did not notice any problems with these at ranges up to 885 yds that I can recall) - on these loads from last year, there were one or two where I could hear an audible "pop" when setting them deeper to check and see if there was any bonding.

Here are the results of the 162 ELDX loads I tested yesterday and refer to questions 1-3 above:

Group #1 - Fresh

1) 2995
2) 2990
3) 2976
4) 2972
5) 2976

AVG: 2982
ES: 23
SD: 10

Group #2 - sat 4 months

6) 2965
7) 2999 <----------- I believe this was possibly due to light welding from sitting. Seems like an outlier.
8) 2964
9) 2977
10) 2975

AVG: 2976
ES: 35
SD: 14

If it is normal to lose some MV when first beginning to dip necks in dry lube, then I think shots #1, #2, and #7 above can be explained and tossed. If this is correct, then this load gives me AVG: 2972 fps, ES: 13, SD: 5.5.
 
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Vol75

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I have a couple of questions for all of you that also dip case necks in graphite before seating.

I have just recently added dipping case necks in Imperial Dry Neck Lube right before seating bullets.

Previously, I have always used the Dry neck lube in the necks when sizing, but I never dipped the necks in the dry lube again just prior to seating. With that said, I just finished developing a new load this past Spring, and once the load was finalized, I loaded up 100 rds with the one addition of dipping the case neck in Dry Neck Lube before seating bullets.

Questions:

1) When adding the additional step of dipping case necks in dry neck lube right before seating bullets, when you fire these new rounds for the first time, do you notice a decrease in MV of about 20 fps vs the same load (or barrel) prior to doing this? I have a suspicion that the first few rounds with extra graphite in the neck coat the inside of the barrel and lower MV a little bit.

2) Do any of you bulk load .010" long, then set the bullet to final seating depth just prior to using them? This is what I have been trying out, but not sure if I have very meaningful data on the results at this point.

3) Would the barrel heating up after 2-3 shots cause this drop in MV of about 20 fps? I don't think I have observed this ever before...


I went out to do final chrono with magnetospeed yesterday on my new load, and also wanted to compare two groups of 5 EA to compare shelf life/possible bullet sticking over time. I made sure the Magnetospeed was on very tight and also used electrical tape as a backup, so I know it did not move on the barrel. My barrel is a 26" Rem 700 LR factory varmint barrel in 7mm RM firing a 162 ELDX.

The 1st group was 5 rounds which were loaded .010" long back in early June 2020 and then set to correct seating depth yesterday morning before I went out to shoot. The 2nd group was also initially loaded .010" long back in early June 2020, but had been set to correct seating depth around mid July 2020, and have not been touched since. These rounds have been stored in an ammo box inside a large plastic Plano Ammo Can with the rubber seal gasket at room temperature in a dark closet. The only variable between the two groups, was when they were set to the correct seating depth: Group #1 was fresh and Group#2 was almost 4 months old.

Based on prior data/experience, I expected the load to chrono at about 2998 fps with the magnetospeed. I took about 2 minutes between shots on average, and I took a 5 minute break after shot #6 and #8, and a 10 minute break after shot #9 for the barrel to cool and sit in shade. I was in the sun and it was 79 F. The barrel has 404 rounds on it now and it was a fouled barrel. After shot #2, the MV seemed to stabilize around 2976 fps. I have tested some of the loads before after they have sat for several weeks to several months by seating them deeper, and some seat smooth with no resistance, but I have noticed a few that have a very, very slight noise/feel resistance break loose. It was much more noticeable on prior/different loads I tested from last year that did not have dry neck lube added to the inside of the necks right before seating and had set for about 1.5 years (I did not notice any problems with these at ranges up to 885 yds that I can recall) - on these loads there were one or two where I could hear an audible "pop" when setting them deeper to check and see if there was any bonding.

Here are the results of the 162 ELDX loads I tested yesterday and refer to questions 1-3 above:

Group #1 - Fresh

1) 2995
2) 2990
3) 2976
4) 2972
5) 2976

AVG: 2982
ES: 23
SD: 10

Group #1 - sat 4 months

6) 2965
7) 2999 <----------- I believe this was possibly due to light welding from sitting. Seems like an outlier.
8) 2964
9) 2977
10) 2975

AVG: 2976
ES: 35
SD: 14

If it is normal to lose some MV when first beginning to dip necks in dry lube, then I think shots #1, #2, and #7 above can be explained and tossed. If this is correct, then this load gives me AVG: 2972 fps, ES: 13, SD: 5.5.
I’ve tried a lot of thing here of late on this subject but ive come away with a belief that whether it’s cold weld or brass (maybe old) that relaxes its grip after it sits a while, something does change in certain ammo When it sits a while. Either way most of the time I bump mine back prior to hunting or load prior to hunting. With that being said I’m not sure 70 % of the hunters would notice ammo groups they shoot under 400 yards.

i am trying Hornady one shot in the neck going forward and see if that helps or hurts this subject.
 

Ladd

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Update on Sized Neck Shelf Life Test: I annealed (10) pieces of 3X 6.5 PRC brass and sized (5) of them today and dated the cases. I’ll let these sit for a while then get back to them and the other (5) later.



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Getting back to this experiment.

I sized the remaining (5) cases last night and loaded them with the equal amounts of N565 and topped them off with the 156 gr Berger EOL.

 

Ladd

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I shot these just now and have the results.

The (5) rounds sized and loaded last night averaged 3035 fps with 8.7 SD and 19 ES. The (5) rounds sized last September and loaded last night averaged 3051 fps with 5.5 SD and 12 ES. The average velocity increased 16 fps from the sized brass that sat for 4 months and the SD and ES decreased 3.2 and 7, respectively. Interesting results. Accuracy was there in the freshly sized loads but the other loads in the 4-mo old sized brass started to spread-out.

Is this significant? Possibly. What do you think?

The top group is the brass sized last night and the lower group is the brass sized on 9/10/20.
 

Sod Farmer

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Call me crazy but I use imperial sizing lube and they don't weld.

i've been using Imperial sizing wax for at least 20 years, it seems to work pretty well.

Dave -
I think using the Imperial sizing wax on bullets might be the ideal solution for me. I am a believer that the oil and salt from your fingers plays a part in contributing to cold welding. I have been dipping necks and bullets in the Imperial dry lube, using latex gloves to avoid touching my bullets during seating. I believe this proceedure works quite well in combating cold welding but It is a PIA wearing the gloves. I think that using the Imperial sizing wax on the bullets would eliminate the need for gloves and be just as quick/easy as dipping cases and bullets in the dry lube. Thanks! I will give it a try.

Ladd -
What range were your groups shot at? The verticle spread on the second target is noticeable, but I doubt that such a small increase in ES would be the cause.
 

Ladd

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Dave -
I think using the Imperial sizing wax on bullets might be the ideal solution for me. I am a believer that the oil and salt from your fingers plays a part in contributing to cold welding. I have been dipping necks and bullets in the Imperial dry lube, using latex gloves to avoid touching my bullets during seating. I believe this proceedure works quite well in combating cold welding but It is a PIA wearing the gloves. I think that using the Imperial sizing wax on the bullets would eliminate the need for gloves and be just as quick/easy as dipping cases and bullets in the dry lube. Thanks! I will give it a try.

Ladd -
What range were your groups shot at? The verticle spread on the second target is noticeable, but I doubt that such a small increase in ES would be the cause.
Dave -
I think using the Imperial sizing wax on bullets might be the ideal solution for me. I am a believer that the oil and salt from your fingers plays a part in contributing to cold welding. I have been dipping necks and bullets in the Imperial dry lube, using latex gloves to avoid touching my bullets during seating. I believe this proceedure works quite well in combating cold welding but It is a PIA wearing the gloves. I think that using the Imperial sizing wax on the bullets would eliminate the need for gloves and be just as quick/easy as dipping cases and bullets in the dry lube. Thanks! I will give it a try.

Ladd -
What range were your groups shot at? The verticle spread on the second target is noticeable, but I doubt that such a small increase in ES would be the cause.
I shot these at 100 yards. The ES change isn’t really much but the velocity increase would take my barrel out of a sweet spot with too much pressure.


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muleystalker

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If I am loading ammo that I am not going to shoot right away I seat the bullets .050" to .080" long and then seat them to correct seating depth right before I am going to shoot them. I do this all the time for Mid and Long Range F-Class shoots. I also never clean my necks and been using Imperial Dry lube in the necks for about 15 years. I think the bullet weld has just as much to do with the certain components in the powder reacting with the copper and brass as it does with the acid and oil from our skin touching the bullets.
I have also used Imperal Wax case lube in the necks while sizing up necks with a mandrel ,in some of my wildcat cartridges, such as my 6x204 or my 30-28 Nosler and never cleaned the lube out before loading with no ill effects.
I might try using just the imperial case Wax instead of the Dry lube and see what happens, I need to check and see if the dry lube used by Imperial is Hydroscopic because know molybdenum disulfide is. I have seen guys that used moly coated bullets not clean their barrels and after sitting for a year very bad things happened to the barrels.
 

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I have seen reports and a few photos of rust that formed on bare steel barrels (chrome/moly only??) when left unattended for some weeks, though when I used Moly to coat my bullets AND barrel (in my Sako Vixen .17 Remington) the only thing I really noted was that I could shoot MANY MORE rounds before a thorough cleaning of the bore was required cos the accuracy had gone... I had simply passed a bore-snake down the tube a couple of times after each vermin shoot and noticed that for perhaps 50+ 20gr Hornady V-Max the rifle was beautifully accurate and a real "laser"!!, whereas prior to the coatings I was needing to clean after no more than 15->20 rounds fired or she actually started to MISS an occasional 250+ yard shot.... The value of doing the coatings was there for me to see, but I had to coat the bullets (none commercially availble) and that was a pain so I eventually stopped doing that. Now you have brought this back into my mind I may very well restart coating the bullets and bore again, but this time perhaps utilising HBN (I think it is called), to avoid any possibility of the accelerated rusting phenomenon with the powdered Moly that you referred to and which I have seen...
Kind Regards,
Blobbs...


ATB ..... and shoot safely

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