Es question

sanner25

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I'm fairly new to the long range hunting/shooting (1000+)
My question is what would be an acceptable ES to keep the shot inside a whitetails kill zone at 1000 yards?
It depends on caliber and load obviously. Let's just say my 300prc with 215 bergers

 

Spreedizzle

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Look at it this way…..your 215 at 3000fps will drop 3” more than at 3020….which would be an ES of 10. Whitetail kill zone call it 10”, which at 1000 yards is 1 MOA. 1 MOA is reasonable in controlled conditions at the range. But there are plenty of great shots (I’m a decent one) that wouldn’t take a 1000 yard shot on a 10” living target. Wind is way more of a factor than ES.
 

Ladd

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Look at it this way…..your 215 at 3000fps will drop 3” more than at 3020….which would be an ES of 10. Whitetail kill zone call it 10”, which at 1000 yards is 1 MOA. 1 MOA is reasonable in controlled conditions at the range. But there are plenty of great shots (I’m a decent one) that wouldn’t take a 1000 yard shot on a 10” living target. Wind is way more of a factor than ES.
Correct me if I'm wrong but you probably meant the ES is 20 for a 3020 to 3000 fps velocity spread. The SD would be more around 10 in this scenario. Other than that, very fine explanation. (y)

ES and SD in the single digit to 10 range is a good goal and what I like to see. When a load is developed at distance, an ES greater than this may still have good results with small vertical dispersion. That's why I've been doing load development following Ryan's ladder testing. I do agree completely with you when it comes to wind. That's why heavier bullets and larger calibers come into play, to reduce the hardest component in ballistics to guestimate from you to the target...the wind.
 

OSOK - Crash

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Look at it this way…..your 215 at 3000fps will drop 3” more than at 3020….which would be an ES of 10. Whitetail kill zone call it 10”, which at 1000 yards is 1 MOA. 1 MOA is reasonable in controlled conditions at the range. But there are plenty of great shots (I’m a decent one) that wouldn’t take a 1000 yard shot on a 10” living target. Wind is way more of a factor than ES.
I would never tell someone what ethical decisions they should make, but I agree with you. 1000yd shot on a whitetail seems risky. For my abilities that is.

I think the OP was just throwing numbers out as an example.
 

Ladd

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I would never tell someone what ethical decisions they should make, but I agree with you. 1000yd shot on a whitetail seems risky. For my abilities that is.

I think the OP was just throwing numbers out as an example.
Totally agree. Shooting that far takes practice and lots of reloading components. The conditions need to be ideal as well.
 

Rhovee

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But… who is to say that your 3020 shot actually hits higher on the target? When you start to shoot long range, you will see that faster bullets don’t always impact higher on the target. Most times we actually want slower and faster shots to line up down range giving us a window for environmental changes and the effects of temp stability of powder. This is why we do “ladders” and OCW when doing load development.

Having said all that, when I am done with load development almost all of them fall around the 12-16 fps range. When I arrived for the lowest possible ES, it wasn’t the most accurate. And honestly you won’t be able to shoot the difference. Lighting condition change will have more of an effect on your poi than an es of 25 that shoots small.
 

NorCal_In_AZ

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This is how I look at it, right or wrong…ES and SD is a measure of your reloading practices. OCW or Ladder testing is the tuning of your load to the gun. If you can find a wide (forgiving) node for your rifle you would be amazed at how well the gun will shoot even with double digit ES.

I shot a coues whitetail this year at 670 yards. To push that out to 1000 yards would be a 30% increase. Both in distance and error. That’s a far shot.
 

sanner25

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I would never tell someone what ethical decisions they should make, but I agree with you. 1000yd shot on a whitetail seems risky. For my abilities that is.

I think the OP was just throwing numbers out as an example.
Yea I was basically just throwing out some numbers.

I have shot several whitetail in the 700 yard range. But things would have to be perfect to take that 1000+ yard shot.
I have shot steal at those distance but just seems like 900+ is a different beast. Not saying I'm not a good enough shot to make those. Im just trying to fine tune my skill set
 

FURMAN

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But… who is to say that your 3020 shot actually hits higher on the target? When you start to shoot long range, you will see that faster bullets don’t always impact higher on the target. Most times we actually want slower and faster shots to line up down range giving us a window for environmental changes and the effects of temp stability of powder. This is why we do “ladders” and OCW when doing load development.

Having said all that, when I am done with load development almost all of them fall around the 12-16 fps range. When I arrived for the lowest possible ES, it wasn’t the most accurate. And honestly you won’t be able to shoot the difference. Lighting condition change will have more of an effect on your poi than an es of 25 that shoots small.
This!
 

Jasent

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I always try for es under 15 but like stated that doesn’t always equal low vertical dispersion.
Only way to know is shoot it and shoot it again and again……
You’ll know when to say it’s enough

Learn the wind. Vertical is the easy part
 

Spreedizzle

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Correct me if I'm wrong but you probably meant the ES is 20 for a 3020 to 3000 fps velocity spread. The SD would be more around 10 in this scenario. Other than that, very fine explanation. (y)

ES and SD in the single digit to 10 range is a good goal and what I like to see. When a load is developed at distance, an ES greater than this may still have good results with small vertical dispersion. That's why I've been doing load development following Ryan's ladder testing. I do agree completely with you when it comes to wind. That's why heavier bullets and larger calibers come into play, to reduce the hardest component in ballistics to guestimate from you to the target...the wind.
Yup....brain fart.....thanks for the catch and correction.
 

bigbulls

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Yea I was basically just throwing out some numbers.

I have shot several whitetail in the 700 yard range. But things would have to be perfect to take that 1000+ yard shot.
I have shot steal at those distance but just seems like 900+ is a different beast. Not saying I'm not a good enough shot to make those. Im just trying to fine tune my skill set
This is so true, I have a range that I shoot at 955 yards and shoot my ladders at. It is becoming fun and easy but I can turn to my left and then I can shoot 1155 yards and that is a whole different game, I remember the first time I did it and I would have never thought that 200 yards could make that much difference. Get a very stable load and do a lot of practice at the ranges you want to kill at and don't worry about the numbers as much as how well you can put the first round bullet in the kill zone at those ranges. Shooting clay pigeons at those ranges with first round hits will tell you what you need to know and it's fun.
 

Greyfox

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I'm fairly new to the long range hunting/shooting (1000+)
My question is what would be an acceptable ES to keep the shot inside a whitetails kill zone at 1000 yards?
It depends on caliber and load obviously. Let's just say my 300prc with 215 bergers
This is easy enough to calculate using your ballistic calculator with your load/conditions at a specific range. For example, a 300wm with 215 Berger’s has an average velocity of 2975FPS/drop22.1 MOA. If you want to see the difference with a 50FPS ES, plug in a velocity of 2950 which will produce a drop of 22.6MOA; and then a velocity of 3000FPS which will produce a drop of 21.6 MOA. Given this example, with an average velocity of 2975FPS and an ES of 50FPS, and an extreme variation in POI of 1MOA or 10.5 inches(approx). At 1000 yards your POI would have a variation of +/- 5 inches. If your target area was 10”(whitetail), technically your shot wold be in that target area.

I generally shoot for an ES of <20FPS, less than half of the above example, which would shrink the variation to less then half those values shown. I fully agree with others, that shots at ranges beyond 700-800 yards can have other variables at play which make shots on game at these distances quite difficult/risky without a good assessment of those variables. IMO.
 

NorCal_In_AZ

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Not to beat a dead horse, but shooting 1000 yards over flat ground is completely different than shooting over 1000 yards over a canyon or two as well.
 

Ladd

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Not to beat a dead horse, but shooting 1000 yards over flat ground is completely different than shooting over 1000 yards over a canyon or two as well.
Yes. And not to mention a left to right or right to left downward wind rolling over the ridge to the side of you.

 

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