Berger 245 EOL Best Cartridge

treillw

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I want to build a rifle to shoot the Berger 245 EOL. I've read lots of old threads on the subject, but they were from last year when the bullet was new. Now that the bullet has been out (and unavailable lol) for awhile, is there any consensus on what the best cartridge is for these bullets. I've shot some 245s at 2694 fps from my win mag and see reports of nearly 3000 fps with larger cases. I'm looking at the rum and prc the most, but will consider anything really. All the options on 30 cal magnums is kind of overwhelming. I'd like to keep the barrel length on the shorter side - 24" or maybe 26" max. Wind drift is my primary concern in ballistics. It's easy to adjust for gravity. What would you chamber it in? Why? What velocity would you expect? Barrel twist?

Thanks!

 
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OSU Fisher

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I’m in the process of putting together a couple builds right now. I had/have the 245 itch myself. I have 2 300wm’s. They both shoot the 215’s well and kill everything I hunt without issue. I just for some reason like the idea of the the 245’s. After talking to a few smiths and Alex wheeler a lot as I plan for him to build them. At this point I plan on a 300 norma improved and will probably shoot the 230’s and maybe 245’s. The rum would push them fine. The prc doesn’t do a ton more then the wm. But I do think the prc lends itself to the 230 a little more just not super fast. From what I hear the 245 is a little more picky and less accurate. My 2nd build is a little up in the air but if things go well with one of his recent builds I think it will be a mild 338 for the 250’s. If you solely want the 245’s I would probably lean towards 1:8 but a 1:9 if quick enough and or not at sea level it will be plenty fine and be a little more universal. My norma improved will be on a 1:9 benchmark carbon 25-26”. I should be able to run the 230’s at 3100 and 245’s at 3000 or more
 

Ladd

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I’ve tried the 245 gr Berger EOL in 3 different 30 cal rifles since the 245 was released. The 300 PRC with a plus P from Defensive Edge, a 30 Sherman, also with a plus P and a 30-338 Lapua Improved. The 30-338 is hands down the best of those three with a MV around 3100 fps while the other two were right around 3000 fps. I don’t think you can get the 245 to 3000 fps in either the standard 300 PRC or 30 Sherman without the plus P, a long barrel or a hot load. I used N570 in all three of these and pushed them to a good and accurate velocity. Not so hot I’d loose primer pockets though. But fast. So, from my experience the best was the 30-338 Lapua Improved.
 
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mullmann

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If you were to go with a 300RUM I would have it throated for the 245’s to maximize velocity and powder capacity, but I’m not sure what the OAL would come out to. Probably close to or over 4” which could make it a single feed. I would look at a 300 Norma or even maybe a Norma improved depending on your reloading experience of you want to form brass. Norma improved dies will cost more. The 300 Norma I built in September shoots great with a 1:8 twist. I would go with a 1:8 twist so if you hunt near sea level there are no issues.

I punched in the numbers and only changed twist rate and altitude. The 1:8 is a much better choice near sea level. The 1:9 looked fine at 4000’.

Hopefully this helps.
 

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OSU Fisher

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If you were to go with a 300RUM I would have it throated for the 245’s to maximize velocity and powder capacity, but I’m not sure what the OAL would come out to. Probably close to or over 4” which could make it a single feed. I would look at a 300 Norma or even maybe a Norma improved depending on your reloading experience of you want to form brass. Norma improved dies will cost more. The 300 Norma I built in September shoots great with a 1:8 twist. I would go with a 1:8 twist so if you hunt near sea level there are no issues.

I punched in the numbers and only changed twist rate and altitude. The 1:8 is a much better choice near sea level. The 1:9 looked fine at 4000’.

Hopefully this helps.
The coal issue is what pushes me personally towards the Norma. You can still mag feed them from cip length mags, cfe12 and obviously cfe9. The rum will be a single feed most likely even in a cfe9 or very close. The forming brass thing is kinda a mute point. Imho you need to form brass in everything… dies really aren’t anymore money unless your running cheap dies in standard stuff. The 1:8 is better for the 245 like you said but with Norma improved speeds the 1:9 should be sufficient pretty much everywhere. I would have went either route. The 1:9 is more readily available which is why I have a 1:9 blank sitting here.
 

Broz

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I have invested many many hours and dollars in researching big 30 cals. I know what I will shoot and why. IMO, if you want the best of all worlds, and the most efficient 30 you can get, you want a 300 Terminator from Defensive Edge. It will run 245's over 3100 with ease. I use an 8 twist for mine and it is a 26" CarbonSix 6 groove.

I am also having a 300 Lapua Improved built by Alex at Wheeler Accuracy. From that rifle we will shoot whatever bullet it likes best at 1000 yards between the 230 Berger and the 245.

There are very good options today for 4" mag boxes. Like the ones DE makes. They feed like a dream and cycle very well. So there is no reason to not use the Lapua case.

There are several good choices, some may be bigger, but these two will make the others struggle to keep up with them and are very accurate choices with awesome brass available.
 

treillw

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Wind drift is my primary concern in ballistics. It's easy to adjust for gravity.
 

Jasent

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300 terminator is on my list but I want to shoot the 241 Seneca
 

Ladd

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If I remember right the 245 drifts only 3-ft in a full value wind at 1000 yards with a 3100 fps MV. That is a plus. Makes me get very anxious for my 338 Terminator build. I know that's a different caliber but. Jeff is right about the 300 Terminator. I've never owned one but its not too far different than the 30-338 Lapua Improved. It has the plus P from Defensive Edge. Similar reasons why I am building a 338 Terminator. Never had a 338 but shooting a 300 gr bullet that fast has to laugh at the wind.
 

treillw

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I should add that I want this to be a packable rifle as well. I will carry it hundreds of miles. Carbon fiber barrel. Ti action. Anticipating 8.5 pounds, dressed for dinner (I know it's going to recoil). I'd like it to not be a single shot, but might be able to live with that if it's worth it.

For a gun that I don't want to carry, I might as well get a 16 pound 338.
 

treillw

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I’ve tried the 245 gr Berger EOL in 3 different 30 cal rifles since the 245 was released. The 300 PRC with a plus P from Defensive Edge, a 30 Sherman, also with a plus P and a 30-338 Lapua Improved. The 30-338 is hands down the best of those three with a MV around 3100 fps while the other two were right around 3000 fps. I don’t think you can get the 245 to 3000 fps in either the standard 300 PRC or 30 Sherman without the plus P, a long barrel or a hot load. I used N570 in all three of these and pushed them to a good and accurate velocity. Not so hot I’d loose primer pockets though. But fast. So, from my experience the best was the 30-338 Lapua Improved.
So what exactly is the +P treatment? Can it be done on any gun?

Thanks!
 

treillw

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I’ve tried the 245 gr Berger EOL in 3 different 30 cal rifles since the 245 was released. The 300 PRC with a plus P from Defensive Edge, a 30 Sherman, also with a plus P and a 30-338 Lapua Improved. The 30-338 is hands down the best of those three with a MV around 3100 fps while the other two were right around 3000 fps. I don’t think you can get the 245 to 3000 fps in either the standard 300 PRC or 30 Sherman without the plus P, a long barrel or a hot load. I used N570 in all three of these and pushed them to a good and accurate velocity. Not so hot I’d loose primer pockets though. But fast. So, from my experience the best was the 30-338 Lapua Improved.
I feel like I'm seeing some conflicting information about the prc. A lot will say it's essentially a win mag, but your results are much different and have it on the same level as a rum.

I'm not pointing any fingers or calling anybody a liar, etc, etc. I've observed this with a lot of people, not just you. Just trying to learn...

What could be some of the reasoning for this discrepancy?
 

Ladd

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My 30-338 was no daisy. Not heavy either. I believe it came in at 10.5 lbs with a NF 5-25x56 ATACR on it. Defiantly not a sheep rifle but I’d pack it 16 miles into any elk mtn around here and did. I expect the same with my 338 Terminator.
 

Ladd

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I feel like I'm seeing some conflicting information about the prc. A lot will say it's essentially a win mag, but your results are much different and have it on the same level as a rum.

I'm not pointing any fingers or calling anybody a liar, etc, etc. I've observed this with a lot of people, not just you. Just trying to learn...

What could be some of the reasoning for this discrepancy?
Not sure what you’re inferring but I do agree with the comment that the 300 PRC is similar to the 300 win mag. It’s definitely not superior, at least in the rifles I’ve owned. The 300 PRC is a great candidate for the plus P and gains decent velocity with it especially with N570.
 

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A question for Broz or someone who may know. If you have plus P done to your barrel, can the chamber be
re-cut later on if need be? I have a 300 RUM with a Bartlein carbon fiber barrel I've been thinking about sending in now that hunting season is over.
 

Broz

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A question for Broz or someone who may know. If you have plus P done to your barrel, can the chamber be
re-cut later on if need be? I have a 300 RUM with a Bartlein carbon fiber barrel I've been thinking about sending in now that hunting season is over.
Not 100% sure I understand the question, but if you are asking if your current rifle you are shooting now have the +P added, the answer is yes. DE can add the +P throat to it.
 

treillw

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Not sure what you’re inferring but I do agree with the comment that the 300 PRC is similar to the 300 win mag. It’s definitely not superior, at least in the rifles I’ve owned. The 300 PRC is a great candidate for the plus P and gains decent velocity with it especially with N570.
I'm not inferring anything. I believe your data and appreciated it. I really do. There is just an inconsistency in the information I'm reading. I hope it's the others who are wrong and you are correct lol. You could both be correct, but there has to be some variable attributed to the difference.

I did pressure testing yesterday with my 300 win and got 2694 fps with 75 grains of H1000 and the 245 Bergers. Albeit not the best powder, but what I have on hand and the store shelves are bare. 20 degrees outside (generating inconservative pressures). Coal 3.811". 8.3 pound gun, recoil was manageable. Slight resistance on the bolt lift, but no other pressure signs. I might be able to get another grain, but don't really want to walk around hunting with zero safety factor on the gun.

Point being, I have a very real view on things when people say the prc is essentially a win mag. I can accept that. I've seen dozens of people say it.

The other hand is I've seen quite a few people pushing the 245 at 3000 fps +/- which to me is a very different animal than the win mag. That's what I would expect from a RUM.

Just leaves me scratching my head. Why the discrepancy?
 

Broz

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There is no magic. Look at the case volumes between the two. They are very close. If you believe case design (shorter and fatter) with a slight increase in shoulder angle is worth a bunch of velocity, I feel you will be disappointed. There is a ton of REAL WORLD data here. I think you would benefit from it if you are so inclined. https://www.longrangeonly.com/300-prc/

Your velocity of 2694 is on point I think. Close to 2700 and we got 2780 with a 230 and H-1000 years ago in a 300 win mag.

I do feel N-570 would get you more velocity in either, and the +P throat in either is worth 100 to 150 fps for comparison.

If you are close to someone shooting a standard 300 PRC getting 3000 fps with a 245 Berger, I would advise you take a few steps back. YMMV
 

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I too am on this same train ride.
I’m wanting a fast 30 cal, my thoughts are the 300NM AI or the 300 Terminator
I’d like to shoot Berger 245’s as well. Mag Feedable or BDL feedable. I don’t want a single shooter.
I like to find dies for either caliber & brass availability.
 

Ladd

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I agree with Jeff. I did a side by side comparison of the 300 wm and the 300 PRC shooting the 230 gr Atip at one time and documented it here on LRO, both with N570. It’s definitely not a thread claiming PRC superiority. I don’t inflate my findings when I’m testing and I have been a critic of claims, the 300 PRC and especially some of the Sherman cases which I’ve tested 4. He won’t approve me in their Facebook chat, that should say something. And, I’ve never commented in any of his threads on the other channel. I would never do that.

The 300 PRC+P is a good option. The case neck allows the bullet to be seated long whereas the 300 wm has a bit shorter neck. I converted my 300 PRC CA Ridgeline with a 1:8 barrel, added the plus P to shoot the 245 with N570. I have a 1:9 twist Fierce barrel with a plus P chambered in 30 Sherman shooting the 245. It’s not faster than the 300 PRC+P. It could be, but not accurately in my barrel and it was too close to pressure in my barrel. With N570. I have a new 1:1.0 twist barrel chambered in 300 PRC with the plus P that I’m prepping for So. Africa. I plan to shoot the 215 gr Berger with H1000 in that one. According to Shawn, I could have a load for it at about 3100 fps but I’ll see when I get to load development.
 

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Not 100% sure I understand the question, but if you are asking if your current rifle you are shooting now have the +P added, the answer is yes. DE can add the +P throat to it.
My Smith left as much on the breech end of the barrel as he could when he built my rifle. He indicated if I started to get excessive throat erosion at some point, he could pull the barrel, re-cut the chamber and set back the barrel to give it some additional life. Question is, if it has the plus P done to it, can he still go in later on and re-cut the chamber if need be. Maybe a question for Carlock, but thought I'd ask.
 

OSU Fisher

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All my research and some in person experience there isn’t a huge gain from the 300wm to 300prc. Now if it was between the two I think I would maybe build the the prc. Expect to shoot the 215-230 similar to the wm. The +p will gain ya some hp but have to do your own research on that and decide if you like the concept. Some do and some don’t.

There are definitely bigger 30’s then the 300nmi I’m piecing together. One that will fling the 230-245 faster forsure. I’m 110% in agreement there. Now you just have to decide if that extra hp will do anything for ya. For me I know the nmi will push the 230-245 all close or over 3100 which is plenty fast for me. In all scenarios. What keeps me from going even bigger in the 30’s is COAL and a little bit of barrel life. Some of those big 30’s are way cool but will be long and are hot rods. This is going to be an all up 9 ish lbs rifle scoped. Will be in my 1st chassis which means 3.750 internal mag length which is a little shorter then cfe12 and obviously nowhere near the 4” cfe9. Now if I hate the chassis it will go in something with a cf9 for future barrels. But until then I want it to mag feed. The nmi should allow me to do that without issue as long as it’s not a crazy long throat. Everyone has different wants, needs, expectation and abilities. For me l, my 300wm’s and 215 bergers at only 2870 have killed every elk they have ever shot at… so anything faster, better? Is just icing on the cake. And really just gives me something to play with
 
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Broz

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My Smith left as much on the breech end of the barrel as he could when he built my rifle. He indicated if I started to get excessive throat erosion at some point, he could pull the barrel, re-cut the chamber and set back the barrel to give it some additional life. Question is, if it has the plus P done to it, can he still go in later on and re-cut the chamber if need be. Maybe a question for Carlock, but thought I'd ask.
Yes, You could set it back to another +P or go back to the original non +P chamber as long as he left enough shank to do so. I would assume he did.
 

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In the case of someone really wanting to be able to feed from the mag, I’m wondering how the 30 Nosler (properly throated of coarse) with a +P throat would do with the 245s? Might be an option worth considering on a magnum bolt face. I know Ryan Avery runs a 30 Nosler +P but he’s using a stubby tube and running 215s.
 

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bb58f08724c1cd842fe59c63c49f5136.jpg


To give you an idea of how the 245 at ~3.9” coal will look in a RUM (bottom) and Terminator (top) that will feed in a 4” box. The Terminator case is a 338 but I would think its almost the same as the 300 Terminator.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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I have a 300RUM shooting 245gr on a modified 700 action. Running N570 getting 3040fps on a Krieger 27" barrel. I do need to single feed. If I did it with a new action I would have a 300 Terminator first choice, 300 Norma Improved 2nd choice. I kind of find myself wondering though, at this point maybe I should just use a 338 or back down to the 210-230gr market????
I know the carry comfort starts to get into the thought process. My RUM is 13# ready to hunt, 338 Edge is 14.4#.
 

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I have invested many many hours and dollars in researching big 30 cals. I know what I will shoot and why. IMO, if you want the best of all worlds, and the most efficient 30 you can get, you want a 300 Terminator from Defensive Edge. It will run 245's over 3100 with ease. I use an 8 twist for mine and it is a 26" CarbonSix 6 groove.

I am also having a 300 Lapua Improved built by Alex at Wheeler Accuracy. From that rifle we will shoot whatever bullet it likes best at 1000 yards between the 230 Berger and the 245.

There are very good options today for 4" mag boxes. Like the ones DE makes. They feed like a dream and cycle very well. So there is no reason to not use the Lapua case.

There are several good choices, some may be bigger, but these two will make the others struggle to keep up with them and are very accurate choices with awesome brass available.
Broz,

If you had to choose either the 300 Terminator or the 300 Lapua Improved, which would you choose to run either the 230 or 245's...most likely the 230's?

What factors are you basing your decision on?

One last question....do you feel, as a hunting round, that either of these are much better than a 300wm running the 215's? Considering powder usage, barrel life, etc?

I have a hankering to build one but I'm not sure it's worth it when I already have everything I need for the 300wm.

Thanks!
 

Broz

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Broz,

If you had to choose either the 300 Terminator or the 300 Lapua Improved, which would you choose to run either the 230 or 245's...most likely the 230's?

What factors are you basing your decision on?

One last question....do you feel, as a hunting round, that either of these are much better than a 300wm running the 215's? Considering powder usage, barrel life, etc?

I have a hankering to build one but I'm not sure it's worth it when I already have everything I need for the 300wm.

Thanks!
Well, I love the 300 Terminator, but Alex is building me a 300 Lapua Improved. I think the terminator will be faster by about 100 fps from the +P. Either are great rounds for elk rifles. The one that shoots tighest at 1000 yards will steal my heart.

I will never argue that a 300 win mag and a 215 will do all we ever want to do. And has laid out truck loads of elk for me. But the reason to build a big 30 is wind drift and bigger bullets for when we want to stretch them as far as we can, and still hit them like a Mack Truck. When you take a 230 or 245, and surpass the 3000 fps mark by a substantial distance with a bullet that has a BC over .8 G1. The external ballistics get pretty darn good. They don't defy the wind, but they make the wind margin of error a lot narrower. I will always have a 300 win mag ready to go in the safe. But when you need to go real long, I like to stack the deck in my favor.
 

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Well, I love the 300 Terminator, but Alex is building me a 300 Lapua Improved. I think the terminator will be faster by about 100 fps from the +P. Either are great rounds for elk rifles. The one that shoots tighest at 1000 yards will steal my heart.

I will never argue that a 300 win mag and a 215 will do all we ever want to do. And has laid out truck loads of elk for me. But the reason to build a big 30 is wind drift and bigger bullets for when we want to stretch them as far as we can, and still hit them like a Mack Truck. When you take a 230 or 245, and surpass the 3000 fps mark by a substantial distance with a bullet that has a BC over .8 G1. The external ballistics get pretty darn good. They don't defy the wind, but they make the wind margin of error a lot narrower. I will always have a 300 win mag ready to go in the safe. But when you need to go real long, I like to stack the deck in my favor.
Thanks so much for the reply. I'll be watching and waiting for your report on the 300 Lapua Improved. I'm assuming you'll be reporting on its progress?
 

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Would it make any sense for me to jump to a 338, keeping in mind the light weight of the rifle (8.5lb complete)? Don't want to be shooting a Lapua, etc at that weight, or I will have some expensive dentist bills.
 

Diverjeff

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There is no magic. Look at the case volumes between the two. They are very close. If you believe case design (shorter and fatter) with a slight increase in shoulder angle is worth a bunch of velocity, I feel you will be disappointed. There is a ton of REAL WORLD data here. I think you would benefit from it if you are so inclined. https://www.longrangeonly.com/300-prc/

Your velocity of 2694 is on point I think. Close to 2700 and we got 2780 with a 230 and H-1000 years ago in a 300 win mag.

I do feel N-570 would get you more velocity in either, and the +P throat in either is worth 100 to 150 fps for comparison.

If you are close to someone shooting a standard 300 PRC getting 3000 fps with a 245 Berger, I would advise you take a few steps back. YMMV
..."I would advise you to take a few steps back."Good one Broz!:ROFLMAO:
 

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I have a 300RUM shooting 245gr on a modified 700 action. Running N570 getting 3040fps on a Krieger 27" barrel. I do need to single feed. If I did it with a new action I would have a 300 Terminator first choice, 300 Norma Improved 2nd choice. I kind of find myself wondering though, at this point maybe I should just use a 338 or back down to the 210-230gr market????
I know the carry comfort starts to get into the thought process. My RUM is 13# ready to hunt, 338 Edge is 14.4#.

What twist? How is it shooting?
 

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