Barrel break in and load development

[CanadianPlinker]

I've been reading the "Modern Advancements" series by Bryan Litz and in the 3rd volume, he discusses barrel break in. The gist of it that I am getting is that there is a good chance of missing good powders or good "nodes" if you start load development before the barrel is fully broken in at approximately 200 rounds. In the testing he only uses 5 different rifles. With all the members on here I know more than 5 barrels in a calibre close to 6.5 creedmoor (what I'm shooting) have been broken in and I am wondering if that 200 round count is fairly consistent. I have been shooting a variety of bullets and powders and have 92 rounds thru the barrel. The groups I am getting at 100 yards are great but the ES and SD are still fairly high. The powder charges used are around 1 grain above minimums to save powder while I do break in and I don't have a proven recipe to follow (new gun new calibre) so I have nothing to compare to. Is it too early to start load development? I'm tracking ES and SD on every round, will I see a definitive plateau of MV when the barrel is good to go? Attached are pictures of 3 different combos with 5 round groups. These are the best, but with any combo I've tried, the worst group so far is under 1.5 " for a 5 shot group.

 

[Masterdunbar]

I don’t think it ever too early to start some form of data collection and load development though it is nice to eliminate curve balls or “unknowns” by waiting for the barrel to settle in. A main reason I don’t wait is components are spendy and can be hard to get. Burning up 200 rounds just to brake a barrel in is spendy and alot of life.

Get your brass first fired. Pick a bullet and powder combo and go for it. If it takes you 100-200 rounds so be it. You get to become familiar with your equipment.

Just don’t do load development on brand new brass. It can end up being a deep rabbit hole

 

[CanadianPlinker]

I don’t think it ever too early to start some form of data collection and load development though it is nice to eliminate curve balls or “unknowns” by waiting for the barrel to settle in. A main reason I don’t wait is components are spendy and can be hard to get. Burning up 200 rounds just to brake a barrel in is spendy and alot of life.

Get your brass first fired. Pick a bullet and powder combo and go for it. If it takes you 100-200 rounds so be it. You get to become familiar with your equipment.

Just don’t do load development on brand new brass. It can end up being a deep rabbit hole

All the brass I have been using is once fired, but through the old barrel. Are you saying I need to fire it through the new rifle once or that since I already have fired it once, resize as my normal routine and go for it?

 

[Masterdunbar]

Thats a good question. Ive never done load development with brass that was once fired from another chamber. I think you have a head start but Id wait to do any shoulder bumping on those cases until you fire them in your 6.5. @Broz would be a good resource on whether your once fired brass from another gun would have any hangups to consider but I would think you are good to go. Start the ladder test.

 

[Broz]

On the brass fired from another rifle , we would need to know how much head space it has and size the brass accordingly for proper head space. If the new barrel has a longer head space the brass will need fired in that chamber. Too much head space or too little can effect pressure of the load.

 

[-CRASH]

If your brass is only once fired in a 6.5 Creedmoor, you are gonna need more firings on it before it will be fully grown to your chamber. Just full size without any shoulder bump. My brass (Lapua) took 5 firing before it needed bumped.

 

[FURMAN]

This topic has two separate avenues of discussion as far as I am concerned. The first is for load development. Much can be learned about the barrel in the first 100 rounds so I do not waste them. Alex and I take different approaches here but regardless of which way you go you can't fall in love with a load before "speed up"(another topic all together) as it may change. I am not going to rehash the details because Alex as two great threads on two pieces of this puzzle that can be tested with little downside. The other is using factory ammo. Keith with just did a video showing a brand new barrel and how he handles them. I agree. I have extensive testing with a "break in" vs no "break in" and I see no difference in the outcome. I do agree with Keith on a Creedmoor changing for roughly 200 rounds but it is not a crazy change per round fired. You just have to watch it. I do not think that applies to overbore cartridges. Many larger cartridges can change somewhat rapidly and I have moved away from the worst like the 28 nosler.

 

[matt_3479]

I have extensive testing with a "break in" vs no "break in" and I see no difference in the outcome.

I’m glad you posted that. I “broke in” every barrel I’ve ever own until the last one and noticed no difference. Little harder on the initial clean but no big deal as it’s still less then a break in cleaning regiment. With only 1 barrel not “broken in” and just shot I wasn’t sure if I just got lucky. New build is here in a day or two and wasn’t sure which route I was going to go

 

[FURMAN]

I clean often when doing load development as in between each outing with plenty of foulers.

 

[Willys]

Theory of brake-in is copper scraped off in rough throat gets vaporized and deposited further down barrel slowing smoothing of barrel towards the muzzle. Shoot - Clean - Shoot allows barrel to smooth out sooner.
Maybe the only measureable effect is how many rounds it takes barrel to speed up or settle in. Hard to know whether it made a difference or not without side by side testing.
When striving for a 1/4 minute rifle its a step I don’t skip, however important.

 

[CanadianPlinker]

If your brass is only once fired in a 6.5 Creedmoor, you are gonna need more firings on it before it will be fully grown to your chamber. Just full size without any shoulder bump. My brass (Lapua) took 5 firing before it needed bumped.

If I'm reading this correctly, measure the brass before and after reloading with a comparitor to check length to shoulder (reload full size no bump to allow for full expansion). When that stops growing, it is fully expanded to my chamber and I can then full size with whatever shoulder bump I choose 2 thou, 3 thou etc, as long as I shoulder bump the same everytime.

 

[Masterdunbar]

If I'm reading this correctly, measure the brass before and after reloading with a comparitor to check length to shoulder (reload full size no bump to allow for full expansion). When that stops growing, it is fully expanded to my chamber and I can then full size with whatever shoulder bump I choose 2 thou, 3 thou etc, as long as I shoulder bump the same everytime.

you should consider watching Broz' video. I follow that method.

It will help you see when you should be considering shoulder bump. You goes off of the bolt lift and the cocking mechanism.

 

[CanadianPlinker]

Theory of brake-in is copper scraped off in rough throat gets vaporized and deposited further down barrel slowing smoothing of barrel towards the muzzle. Shoot - Clean - Shoot allows barrel to smooth out sooner.
Maybe the only measureable effect is how many rounds it takes barrel to speed up or settle in. Hard to know whether it made a difference or not without side by side testing.
When striving for a 1/4 minute rifle its a step I don’t skip, however important.

My patter was shot, clean, shot, clean, shot, clean, 2 shot, clean, 5 shot, clean, shot 30 more rounds and cleaned at home. By the time I did the clean after 5 shots it only took 4 or 5 patches. When I got home, ran 2 copper solvent patches thru, scrubbed with nylon bristle brush, by the 6th patch after that it was as clean as new. Didn't have any indication of copper fouling. I agree about not knowing if it will make a difference, but mentally it would have bugged me if I didn't. Have only done this on this rifle with the original and aftermarket barrels. Didn't know about any kind of break in when I bought my first new rifle years ago.

 

[-CRASH]

If I'm reading this correctly, measure the brass before and after reloading with a comparitor to check length to shoulder (reload full size no bump to allow for full expansion). When that stops growing, it is fully expanded to my chamber and I can then full size with whatever shoulder bump I choose 2 thou, 3 thou etc, as long as I shoulder bump the same everytime.

You got it. You will notice that it's hard or even very hard to close the bolt on brass that has fully grown to your chamber as well.

 

[CanadianPlinker]

you should consider watching Broz' video. I follow that method.

It will help you see when you should be considering shoulder bump. You goes off of the bolt lift and the cocking mechanism.

I'm going to have to learn how to remove the spring from my bolt as it has tension closing no matter the safety position.

 

[Masterdunbar]

I'm going to have to learn how to remove the spring from my bolt as it has tension closing no matter the safety position.

Easy process but I also don’t have to. Just takes a little feel. Of u start with a case that has zero headspace u will feel it as u work back in bumping. I strongly suggest the comp shell holders. They make it easy and precise

 

[dthomas]

I don't do any break in on my barrels. I start load development from the beginning,but load may change down the road. Just don't load up hundreds of rounds at a time and expect to not have to change something. Don't bump your shoulders back until you need to. Now every body has an opinion on barrel break in so do what you feel comfortable with.

 

[-CRASH]

I'm going to have to learn how to remove the spring from my bolt as it has tension closing no matter the safety position.

I would highly recommend this kit from Brownells/Sinclair. It's not the cheapest option, but it's amazing. I would buy another if I had too. I use it a lot for cleaning as well as checking my brass for bump. Just makes it super easy and nice.
You will still need a punch kit or a punch to remove the roll pin that holds your ejector. But you can get those fairly cheap.

Here is the link for the kit. Check it out. It's a nice kit.

SINCLAIR INTERNATIONAL REMINGTON 700 BOLT MAINTENANCE TOOL KIT

Check out SINCLAIR INTERNATIONAL REMINGTON 700 BOLT MAINTENANCE TOOL KIT with 16 reviews and an overall rating of 4.9, available Online at Brownells Today and many more Rifle Tools products are available in our Tools & Cleaning Department.

www.brownells.com

 

[Diverjeff]

I'm going to have to learn how to remove the spring from my bolt as it has tension closing no matter the safety position.

Super easy once you have the tools from Sinclair(and a 1/16" punch),I've had mine stripped probably 10 times and only takes a minute or two.I've used it to find/set headspace as per Broz's video and again the other day to find the lands using Alex Wheeler's method as per his video,plus just general cleaning,etc.

 

[CanadianPlinker]

With the Howa, I can remove the pin very easily (thanks youtube for the video) and re install without tools. The brass that I have fired once through the old barrel and once through the new has already expanded enough that the bolt won't close easily. I didn't measure it before shooting the second time, but since it's expanded enough to rub when closing the bolt, can I start measuring my shoulder bump from there?

 

[Willys]

I’d guess you are within a thou of final length. I would bump .001 to .003 til you get a bolt close feel you like.

 

[-CRASH]

With the Howa, I can remove the pin very easily (thanks youtube for the video) and re install without tools. The brass that I have fired once through the old barrel and once through the new has already expanded enough that the bolt won't close easily. I didn't measure it before shooting the second time, but since it's expanded enough to rub when closing the bolt, can I start measuring my shoulder bump from there?

Is it a gummy bolt close, or won't close at all? If it's gummy, it still has a little bit to go. If it's hard or won't close, you're good to bump. You can make the brass last a long time if you wait until it's needed to bump. Especially in a creed.
What brass are you running? I don't think I caught that.

 

[CanadianPlinker]

Is it a gummy bolt close, or won't close at all? If it's gummy, it still has a little bit to go. If it's hard or won't close, you're good to bump. You can make the brass last a long time if you wait until it's needed to bump. Especially in a creed.
What brass are you running? I don't think I caught that.

Running Hornady brass. Have 160 cases fired through the old barrel that I will use until they fail and then I will get some Lapua brass. Bolt close is gummy. I don't have a setup to anneal yet so anything to make the brass last a little longer is good.

 

[-CRASH]

Running Hornady brass. Have 160 cases fired through the old barrel that I will use until they fail and then I will get some Lapua brass. Bolt close is gummy. I don't have a setup to anneal yet so anything to make the brass last a little longer is good.

Try another firing without bump and see how they feel after. I think you're close.

 

[Hammer]

I clean often when doing load development as in between each outing with plenty of foulers.

Ryan - when you clean between load development sessions, do you always get the barrel back to bare steel?

 

[FURMAN]

I don’t use a copper cleaner. I only remove the carbon.

 

[damckenzie86]

As your barrel is breaking in from shot one to 200 pressures are changing throughout this process. These changes introduce inconsistencies into your brass. I don’t even like shooting my premium brass through until the barrel is broke in. I will reload the same 10 pieces of brass about 20 times to gather data. This allows me to test the brass and preserve most of my brass. By the time I have 200 shots down the barrel I have a pretty good idea of what powder, bullet and primer the gun likes. Next, I load up all of my brass at the load that I figured out. With this process all of your brass will be very, very consistent. On the first firing I also always create a false shoulder on the new brass so that the brass grows in the correct area of the case. Otherwise the brass grows near the base because the brass is so undersized when it is new. Most of my rifles have taken 150-200 for the barrels to settle in. Some barrels will only change 40-50 fps and some will speed up over 100 fps during break in. I hope this helps!

 

[Arrieta578]

If I might politely add something here...

The need to clean the copper out of a barrel is probably dependent on your particular climate situation and how often you shoot. When copper builds up on steel and slowly oxidizes, it can lead to galvanic corrosion, where the steel in your barrel will corrode more quickly due to the electrochemical reaction between the two metals.

I lived by the ocean for a number of years and ruined the barrels on several rifles by not cleaning the copper out of them after shooting them. The corrosion resulted in significant pitting inside the barrel, even though the exterior of the barrel and action looked well oiled and brand new. And... it didn't take long, just a few months or so sitting in my safe with a dehumidifier... I'm sure the salt air didn't help.

I don't live by the ocean anymore, but after that experience, I think it might not be a bad idea to clean the copper out of your barrel if you live somewhere with high humidity.

 

[62flint]

If I might politely add something here...

The need to clean the copper out of a barrel is probably dependent on your particular climate situation and how often you shoot. When copper builds up on steel and slowly oxidizes, it can lead to galvanic corrosion, where the steel in your barrel will corrode more quickly due to the electrochemical reaction between the two metals.

I lived by the ocean for a number of years and ruined the barrels on several rifles by not cleaning the copper out of them after shooting them. The corrosion resulted in significant pitting inside the barrel, even though the exterior of the barrel and action looked well oiled and brand new. And... it didn't take long, just a few months or so sitting in my safe with a dehumidifier... I'm sure the salt air didn't help.

I don't live by the ocean anymore, but after that experience, I think it might not be a bad idea to clean the copper out of your barrel if you live somewhere with high humidity.

I live a good bit of the year on the east coast of Virginia. I have actually seen the inside of my barrels turn green before from copper and sitting in the safe. I clean mine with bore tech cleaners and store cleaned and oiled after the hunting season or when I think they may be sitting for a while.
But a green film in the barrel , if it causes issues or not makes me uncomfortable.

 

[quandary]

Take it for what you will. I live quite close to Bartlein and have a few of their barrels, also chambered by them. When you sit in the factory with them, they are all shooters and hunters as well as barrel makers. They will tell you break in is not a thing. Shoot it 3 to 5 rounds, clean it and done, solely to make sure all the solvents from the manufacturing process are out. Same thing with Benchmark, they have told me they put break in guidelines only to make customers happy who kept asking about break-in.

Maybe break-in is a thing for lower end barrels?

 

[SpeyRod]

Take it for what you will. I live quite close to Bartlein and have a few of their barrels, also chambered by them. When you sit in the factory with them, they are all shooters and hunters as well as barrel makers. They will tell you break in is not a thing. Shoot it 3 to 5 rounds, clean it and done, solely to make sure all the solvents from the manufacturing process are out. Same thing with Benchmark, they have told me they put break in guidelines only to make customers happy who kept asking about break-in.

Maybe break-in is a thing for lower end barrels?

I think the old post was more about load development as a new barrel breaks in. That’s different than new barrel break in. I believe a properly made barrel doesn’t require “break in”. I let the barrel tell me what it needs through careful cleaning for the first 5-10 rounds. Lots of copper = more cleaning. Very little copper = little cleaning.

As to the original question, I develop the best load I can while the barrel is breaking in. I have found a good load will need minimal tweaking once the barrel speeds up.

My Norma is being rebarreled as we speak. The chamber will be cut identical to the last. I plan to work up with the old 4x brass and with new brass. I want to see if there is a difference.

 

[OrganicCavalry]

This topic has two separate avenues of discussion as far as I am concerned. The first is for load development. Much can be learned about the barrel in the first 100 rounds so I do not waste them. Alex and I take different approaches here but regardless of which way you go you can't fall in love with a load before "speed up"(another topic all together) as it may change. I am not going to rehash the details because Alex as two great threads on two pieces of this puzzle that can be tested with little downside. The other is using factory ammo. Keith with just did a video showing a brand new barrel and how he handles them. I agree. I have extensive testing with a "break in" vs no "break in" and I see no difference in the outcome. I do agree with Keith on a Creedmoor changing for roughly 200 rounds but it is not a crazy change per round fired. You just have to watch it. I do not think that applies to overbore cartridges. Many larger cartridges can change somewhat rapidly and I have moved away from the worst like the 28 nosler.

Do you think there is value in using a chronograph from the first bullet on with a new rifle?

 

[FURMAN]

Do you think there is value in using a chronograph from the first bullet on with a new rifle?

I do but it’s just information. The target tells you where the load is.