300 Win Mag, 30 Nosler and 300 PRC Discussion

Broz

LRO Owner~Editor~Long Range Hunting Specilist
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Messages
11,953
Reaction score
5,241
Points
113
Location
Foot of the Big Belt Mountains near Townsend MT.
So here are the tested case capacities from Ryan.

H2O to the top of the case mouth.

300 PRC:

Bertram = 89 gr.
Hornady = 97 gr.


300 Win Mag:

Nosler = 95 gr.
Norma = 95 gr.


30 Nosler:

Nosler = 99 gr.
Bertram = 100 gr.
ADG = 101 gr.


Now I will be the odd man out that has never seen a huge difference in case design as far as performance. Maybe better ES yes. But for sure the proper powder for a good case fill, and proper barrel length for the burn rate and charge weight will make more difference? Maybe not?


I am just opening this discussion with an open mind to see why other think the PRC will out perform the 300 win mag?

All I can find for internet or magazine articles are handicapping the 300 win mag.

What you all say?

Jeff

 

Broz

LRO Owner~Editor~Long Range Hunting Specilist
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Messages
11,953
Reaction score
5,241
Points
113
Location
Foot of the Big Belt Mountains near Townsend MT.
The question,, in my mind will be.... Does the little bit of case capacity equate to a usable charge? Meaning will a few grains of room and a "Better" case design allow for those few extra grains of capacity to be used? Or will they pressure out the same like my test on the 300 win mag and 30 nosler?

Jeff
 
Last edited:

adam32

Active member
Joined
Jul 13, 2016
Messages
503
Reaction score
98
Points
28
Location
Foothills of the Sierra Nevada's
Are you sure those numbers for the PRC are correct? 8grs different between Bertram and Hornady?

They SHOULD all run pretty much equal to each other if at equal pressure.

I happen to like the PRC at the moment just because they did SAAMI right with a good throat and fast twist barrels. But that really only matters for factory rifles.
 

FURMAN

LRO Rifle and Gear Review Editor
Staff member
Joined
May 27, 2015
Messages
2,664
Reaction score
2,223
Points
113
Location
Emporia Ks
Are you sure those numbers for the PRC are correct? 8grs different between Bertram and Hornady?

They SHOULD all run pretty much equal to each other if at equal pressure.

I happen to like the PRC at the moment just because they did SAAMI right with a good throat and fast twist barrels. But that really only matters for factory rifles.


Absolutely sure. You will see a very similar pattern with Bertram or RWS vs Norma/Nosler in the 300 WM.

I will tell you that 5+% difference in H20 capacity is rather large. I would NOT expect the cartridges to perform the same if you took ten of each and averaged them.
 
Last edited:

HARPERC

Active member
Joined
May 23, 2013
Messages
723
Reaction score
54
Points
28
Location
Spokane, Washington
I have trouble with the concept of case shape trumping capacity. But I have quality people assuring me it can.

Throw a general thought out. Not ambitious enough to dig for facts at the moment. I haven't checked the manuals lately, but the older ones, back when I shot a .300 H&H, it consistently had top velocity over the Winchester and the Weatherby. Sometimes it was because most H&H's came with 26" barrels, but 26=26 it holds it's own.

Never played with a WSM, but most articles indicate case capacity almost identical with the H&H, and they run neck, and neck. The most modern version, against the original, and basically a tie??????

I wont do it, but every once in awhile I get an impulse to have a LRKM chambered in the .300 H&H. See what happens accuracy wise in a modern designed rifle, and what velocity in 28-30" barrel.
 

FURMAN

LRO Rifle and Gear Review Editor
Staff member
Joined
May 27, 2015
Messages
2,664
Reaction score
2,223
Points
113
Location
Emporia Ks
I have trouble with the concept of case shape trumping capacity. But I have quality people assuring me it can.

Throw a general thought out. Not ambitious enough to dig for facts at the moment. I haven't checked the manuals lately, but the older ones, back when I shot a .300 H&H, it consistently had top velocity over the Winchester and the Weatherby. Sometimes it was because most H&H's came with 26" barrels, but 26=26 it holds it's own.

Never played with a WSM, but most articles indicate case capacity almost identical with the H&H, and they run neck, and neck. The most modern version, against the original, and basically a tie??????

I wont do it, but every once in awhile I get an impulse to have a LRKM chambered in the .300 H&H. See what happens accuracy wise in a modern designed rifle, and what velocity in 28-30" barrel.

Shorter fatter cases are more efficient and in almost, if not, every case are better at holding vertical. Benchrest proves this over and over. I personally do not feel this completes the story when we are talking about hunting cartridges but is always a consideration. This is why the 300 WSM dominates 1000 yard benchrest when the wind blows. It is also the same reason the 6br and improved versions dominate when calm.

In my opinion and experience the three cartridges are equally as capable of holding a tight enough for long range hunting vertical. Frank Green of Bartlein barrels and Dave Tooley a very well respected shooter and gunsmith claim they are nearing the tight vertical of the WSM with the PRC but I have not seen it in my hunting rifle.
 

Broz

LRO Owner~Editor~Long Range Hunting Specilist
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Messages
11,953
Reaction score
5,241
Points
113
Location
Foot of the Big Belt Mountains near Townsend MT.
Ryan, if your load has an equally tight ES in velocity, how does shorter fatter result in less vertical? Just interested in learning here.

I guess my testing has made me skeptical. Especially when I load 82.2 gr of 570 both in 300 win mag and 30 Nosler, and they both go 3100 fps. I can understand the concept of a more even burn with high case fills, but we all know we can get very tigh ES even on long cases with well chosen components.

I would also say I am not sure there is one powder that would optimize a case fill better than H-1000 or N 570 in any of these cases. My point being, is a small amount of case volume really a advantage?

Great conversation guys Thanks!

Jeff
 

SIDS01

Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Messages
55
Reaction score
7
Points
8
I've also been watching the 300PRC fad wind up with some amusement. My take on it is:

The largest real advantages of the 300 PRC over the 300 WM are Hornady got to start with a fresh sheet of paper on cartridge length and can use modern propellants. When the WM was introduced, IMR4831 was about as slow as powders got, and back then it was pretty close to today's H4350.

The PRC case is less than 20 thousandths larger in diameter than the WM and the case shoulder is 5 degrees steeper. That won't translate into anything measurable. If the PRC was somehow more efficient, it'll be the only situation I've ever heard of where a steeper transition angle somehow improved flow efficiency.

With the same bullet, loaded to the same length and pressure with the same powder, only the difference in case capacity will show up. It'll be small. The WM was rated at 64 ksi, the PRC is 65 ksi. Not enough to really matter. Brass brand matters more for pressure and we're talking about generally soft Hornady brass with the PRC. Variations in the pressure given by individual barrels will be larger than the differences in the case capacities of the WM and PRC.

In the real world, the PRCs advantages over the WM are a heavy advertising campaign that includes internet "influencers" like Tooley, public demand for the latest thing, and factory ammo with decent bullets. I don't take Tooley too seriously because his opinions seem to align with his revenue streams and lack technical merit. They're also trying to link it to the 6.5cm. The 6.5cm brought decent precision rifle ammo and ballistics to those who don't reload. Where that link breaks down is SDs of 15-20 fps are great for commercial "match" ammo and that worked for the 6.5cm, but cutting that in half is straight forward for a hand loader and shows up significantly at ELR ranges.

Even if it were real, benchrest vertical has nothing to do with vertical at 2000 yards. Benchrest is shot free recoil out of guns with weight limits. Small cartridges that give adequate ballistics and minimize recoil are priorities. With ELR, adequate ballistics don't exist and the game is managing those limitations and the information you need but can't have. After getting your velocity spreads down, the hunt starts for a bullet that gives the lowest shot to shot BC variations.

I don't find the WM belt useless. With Norma brass and a match chamber, the headspace off the belt is never more than 3 thousandths short. Even with a minimum chamber, new brass is seldom that close in cartridges that headspace at the shoulder. I use the Willis die and don't find it a huge inconvenience. My first batch of Peterson 300 Norma brass was 6-15 thousandths short. I expanded it up to 338 and back down to 30 caliber. I was swearing about not having the belt for most of that process.

All that being said, if I were starting out in ELR and didn't reload, a 300 PRC RPR would be a lot better place to start than what was available only a year ago.

For my current situation, I'll stick with my 300WMs, 300 Normas, 300/338 Lapua Improved. Ordered a 300 Lapua reamer this morning. I don't really see the need to split the WM and Norma gap with a PRC. If I did, I'd probably go with the 30 Nosler for the better brass. It also has another 18 thousandths of diameter and 5 degrees of shoulder angle beyond the PRC. It should be even more efficient right?
 

FURMAN

LRO Rifle and Gear Review Editor
Staff member
Joined
May 27, 2015
Messages
2,664
Reaction score
2,223
Points
113
Location
Emporia Ks
Ryan, if your load has an equally tight ES in velocity, how does shorter fatter result in less vertical? Just interested in learning here.

I guess my testing has made me skeptical. Especially when I load 82.2 gr of 570 both in 300 win mag and 30 Nosler, and they both go 3100 fps. I can understand the concept of a more even burn with high case fills, but we all know we can get very tigh ES even on long cases with well chosen components.

I would also say I am not sure there is one powder that would optimize a case fill better than H-1000 or N 570 in any of these cases. My point being, is a small amount of case volume really a advantage?

Great conversation guys Thanks!

Jeff


It is accuracy capability/potential of the cartridge. Which ultimately has to do with pushing a given bullet at the most accurate velocity with the most efficient powder possible. Most of us hunters want speed and lean to the slower burning powders to accomplish this, myself included. This does not always lead to the most accurate load possible but does obviously meet our needs. I can assure you if there was something better the benchrest guys would be using it. The fact is no cartridge will match the vertical capability of the 6br or an improved at 600-1000 yards. The topic is too complex to limit the discussion to ES or SD only. In several cartridges/bullet/powder combos I have tried I have gotten awesome ES and SDs with crap accuracy. One thing which can come into play especially at one given yardage such as the case with 1lk benchrest is positive compensation. You can actually do load development specially around it. I do not believe that aspect belongs in this discussion of the better 30 cal cartridge. I will keep my comments to what I know as much over 1k yards does not interest me at all because I will never be killing game at those distances. I do love long range shooting/hunting but in the end I am a hunter. I do love to learn everything I can about our hobby, obsession, life, whatever we want to call. What I have seen in almost every case is the smaller the case for a given bullet the more accurate and easy to tune it is. I have seen this with the 300 WSM over my much preferred 300 WM or 30 Nosler. I have also seen this with my 7SAUM and 7WSM over the 7 Rem mag and 7-300. Again I do prefer the larger cases especially in the 30s but that idea is waning. I used to want faster, faster, faster. Obviously that plays a role when combined with great bc. We all know our wind reading skills are the weak link. My personal opinion is as hunters we really need to balance ultimate accuracy with ballistic performance. I do believe each of us is doing that but we all have different thresholds. When we look at the facts the 300 WM/30 Nosler are not going to shoot as tight of aggregate groups as a 300WSM but as I just stated I do not believe accuracy is the end all be all. I also believe that we are lying to ourselves if we think some of that reason for that is not from the extra recoil of the larger powder charge. I do enjoy the conversation. I will tell you I learn something new almost every time I shoot. In any case I do not feel that any of the three mentioned cases is really better enough to say the case is clearly better other than I prefer more room to run the velocity I want at a lower pressure while keeping oal under 3.850".
 
Last edited:

Broz

LRO Owner~Editor~Long Range Hunting Specilist
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Messages
11,953
Reaction score
5,241
Points
113
Location
Foot of the Big Belt Mountains near Townsend MT.
It is accuracy capability/potential of the cartridge. Which ultimately has to do with pushing a given bullet at the most accurate velocity with the most efficient powder possible. .

I have read about this for years, I just have not seen it in my personal ventures. I have owned several short fatties, but the most accurate rifles I have ever owned have all been long cases. Not saying it is not real, most likely just not big enough to be visible without a machine rest on a concrete platform.

Jeff
 

FURMAN

LRO Rifle and Gear Review Editor
Staff member
Joined
May 27, 2015
Messages
2,664
Reaction score
2,223
Points
113
Location
Emporia Ks
Definitely easier to see when not shooting hunting rifles from field positions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

HARPERC

Active member
Joined
May 23, 2013
Messages
723
Reaction score
54
Points
28
Location
Spokane, Washington
...........Definitely easier to see when not shooting hunting rifles from field positions.........


Which is how I view the discussion, any .30 caliber cartridge, pushing a 215 Berger at 3000 fps, maintaining single digit ES, 0.5 MOA, makes the cut for a LRH rifle. My old pre-war .300 H&H would meet those criteria. Theoretically, it's as poorly designed as one can get.

The choice between the others mentioned should be made using other criteria. Available rifles, and components are bigger factors in the discussion in my opinion.
 

justthefacts

New member
Joined
Dec 4, 2019
Messages
1
Reaction score
0
Points
0
This is extremely well said, well thought out, based on real-world data and wisdom. It squares with my roughly 40 years of reloading and shooting, and positions these cartridge options exactly how and as they should be. Thank you for your post. I completely agree with your conclusions and thought process.
 

MILEPOST

Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Messages
212
Reaction score
15
Points
18
The question,, in my mind will be.... Does the little bit of case capacity equate to a usable charge? Meaning will a few grains of room and a "Better" case design allow for those few extra grains of capacity to be used? Or will they pressure out the same like my test on the 300 win mag and 30 nosler?

Jeff

Lots going on here with internal ballistics.

Using your comparison of the 30 WM to the 30 Nosler...

You used the same powder ( Burn rate ) in the same quantity and using the same bullet. Both cartridges are within a tenth of an inch of each other as far as internal case length to the shoulder and both have close to a 100 % fill ( give or take + or - 2% ) Then why wouldn't they not act exactly the same?

Many reloaders forget that max pressure occurs when the bullet is 3"-4" down the barrel and not when the bullet is touching the lands.
Once the bullet bearing surface is fully engaging the rifling and it's axial alignment is true, the influences to accuracy from the cartridge are done.
It's all about the barrel now and of course how well an experienced shooter can aim it and adjust to environmental conditions (dope)

Here are just a few reasons why the shorter and fatter cartridges are more efficient:

1) Explosives expend their energy in a spherical motion. Shorter and fatter cartridges allow that redirection of energy in a forward direction with a less sharp turn. (conservation of energy)

2) Newer design cartridges generally have steeper shoulder angles and less taper. This creates a slightly better shaped pressure vessel. More important is that the case growth and brass flow are better contained. So ask yourself... What would be more accurate. A case design that is not moving around as much when fired or an old school one that is moving and growing more in length when fired?

3) Since shorter fatter cartridges like a WSM typically burn a slightly faster burn rate powder they then can get away with using a shorter barrel for the same performance. Keeping the same barrel length when using a fatter cartridge effectively is like adding a couple extra inches of barrel.

BTW - A shorter case/chamber is effectively adding a half inch or so of barrel when compared to a long case too.

All this adds up to more efficiency, accuracy and a little extra speed using a short case design. It also can help in giving more available length for those high BC bullets.

IMO - With regards to vertical stringing. It is more important to use high quality match grade cases teamed up with a good high energy temp resistant powder and assembled with proper reloading techniques. Just like what Jeff and others show here.
 
Last edited:

MILEPOST

Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Messages
212
Reaction score
15
Points
18
I know you already know all this Jeff... But there are a lot of other things with regards to showing pressure signs outside of the case design.

The quality of the brass
Seating depth/freebore
Stepped throat, like a Wby or DE +P throat
primer choice
HBN type coatings
Chamber specs... match or hunting/tactical

A modern short/fat case or improved version will tolerate a bit more pressure over the older high taper gentler shoulder design because of less bolt thrust and brass flow. So, you could possibly get away with a few more grains of powder if are bit under a 100% case fill.

Jeff,
Kinda makes me wonder if you had some quality 30 Nosler ADG brass and Shawn's +P throat if you could then squeeze in a few more grains of that VV570 powder and find a higher accuracy node?
 
Last edited:

Broz

LRO Owner~Editor~Long Range Hunting Specilist
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Messages
11,953
Reaction score
5,241
Points
113
Location
Foot of the Big Belt Mountains near Townsend MT.
Jeff,
Kinda makes me wonder if you had some quality 30 Nosler ADG brass and Shawn's +P throat if you could then squeeze in a few more grains of that VV570 powder and find a higher accuracy node?

The barrel died in 600 to 700 rounds. I am really liking the old 300 win mag now. In fact, the Executive Order 30 Nosler, will soon be the Executive Order 300 win mag. My previous 300 win mag was running over 3K with the same bullet and is still going strong with close to 1500 rounds. As you say, many vaiables, but should we attribute shorter barrel life to the great shorter fatter cases? Deserves some thought I guess.
 

BClrh

Active member
Joined
Dec 11, 2016
Messages
428
Reaction score
67
Points
28
Location
BC, Canada
The barrel died in 600 to 700 rounds. I am really liking the old 300 win mag now. In fact, the Executive Order 30 Nosler, will soon be the Executive Order 300 win mag. My previous 300 win mag was running over 3K with the same bullet and is still going strong with close to 1500 rounds. As you say, many vaiables, but should we attribute shorter barrel life to the great shorter fatter cases? Deserves some thought I guess.
I can't say for sure but I have a feeling that the win mag will last longer. But if you crank her to the max with n570, just like the 30 nosler, I have a feeling you wont get no 1500 rounds of barrel life.
 

Jett

Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2013
Messages
78
Reaction score
47
Points
18
I can't say for sure but I have a feeling that the win mag will last longer. But if you crank her to the max with n570, just like the 30 nosler, I have a feeling you wont get no 1500 rounds of barrel life.

Hmmm Jeff, that sounds like a challenge for you to conduct an extended test and comparison between these two cartridges! :D
 

Broz

LRO Owner~Editor~Long Range Hunting Specilist
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Messages
11,953
Reaction score
5,241
Points
113
Location
Foot of the Big Belt Mountains near Townsend MT.
I can't say for sure but I have a feeling that the win mag will last longer. But if you crank her to the max with n570, just like the 30 nosler, I have a feeling you wont get no 1500 rounds of barrel life.

Actually many claim higher velocities that I was getting with the 30 N. I was at 3100 from a 28" tube. My old win mag was 3035 from a 28" tube with H-1000. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to insinuate that some powders are not harder on barrels than others. But the facts are there are many many variables that dictate muzzle velocity performance and barrel life. So many it would be hard for us to test unless we had someone to fund it properly. Some of these variables do include case design. That is the one we often jump on band wagons and wave flags for. We all like something "New". Another would be individual barrels. We have two identical match rifles right now. Same barrels, actions, stocks etc. 100% twins. One is 50 fps faster that the other with the same ammo, powder lots, bullet lots, brass and primers too. They were build together with the same reamer. It is facts like this that cloud our vision and let us see what we want to believe. I have only owned one 30 Nosler and it was a fine rifle. but I have owned over a dozen 300 win mags that have all performed at or above expectations for a lot longer time. This is the reasoning for my going back so I have one tried and true 1200 yard elk rifle ready to go any day I am. I just need one I can trust all the time.

Jeff
 

Broz

LRO Owner~Editor~Long Range Hunting Specilist
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Messages
11,953
Reaction score
5,241
Points
113
Location
Foot of the Big Belt Mountains near Townsend MT.
Hmmm Jeff, that sounds like a challenge for you to conduct an extended test and comparison between these two cartridges! :D

R Furman's 30 Nosler died at 700 rounds. Are we seeing a pattern? The testimonials are many with 300 win mags at or over 2000 rounds. The data may already be out there. Believe me, if I find something with a good advantage in all categories, I will be shooting it. But I am not going to ignore years of facts and kick an old cartridge aside for new "Technology" and marketing Hype.

Jeff
 

HARPERC

Active member
Joined
May 23, 2013
Messages
723
Reaction score
54
Points
28
Location
Spokane, Washington
........But I am not going to ignore years of facts and kick an old cartridge aside for new "Technology" and marketing Hype.
..........................

Some of the older cartridges suffer more from the lack of better brass, than design. Some could use updates like faster twist.

I've said this before, but if I hit the lotto-high on the list is an LRKM in .300 H&H, just to rattle cages.

That said you young guys are likely better off with cartridges having better logistical support.

The .30 Nosler barrel life seems to not be an isolated rifle. Bears watching.
 

BClrh

Active member
Joined
Dec 11, 2016
Messages
428
Reaction score
67
Points
28
Location
BC, Canada
Actually many claim higher velocities that I was getting with the 30 N. I was at 3100 from a 28" tube. My old win mag was 3035 from a 28" tube with H-1000. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to insinuate that some powders are not harder on barrels than others. But the facts are there are many many variables that dictate muzzle velocity performance and barrel life. So many it would be hard for us to test unless we had someone to fund it properly. Some of these variables do include case design. That is the one we often jump on band wagons and wave flags for. We all like something "New". Another would be individual barrels. We have two identical match rifles right now. Same barrels, actions, stocks etc. 100% twins. One is 50 fps faster that the other with the same ammo, powder lots, bullet lots, brass and primers too. They were build together with the same reamer. It is facts like this that cloud our vision and let us see what we want to believe. I have only owned one 30 Nosler and it was a fine rifle. but I have owned over a dozen 300 win mags that have all performed at or above expectations for a lot longer time. This is the reasoning for my going back so I have one tried and true 1200 yard elk rifle ready to go any day I am. I just need one I can trust all the time.

Jeff

I agree Jeff, there are lots of variables and the win mag has a bit less capacity which would in theory help increase barrel life. I think it would be a great test for you to rebarrel in 300 win mag and run her up to 3100fps with the 215 berger and n570 and see what barrel life is like. It is a very small sample size but would still be very interesting to see how much difference there is. If the win mag can push the 215 the same speed as the 30 nosler and get double or triple the barrel life I can tell you I will be getting one, and I am not being sarcastic!
 

Broz

LRO Owner~Editor~Long Range Hunting Specilist
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Messages
11,953
Reaction score
5,241
Points
113
Location
Foot of the Big Belt Mountains near Townsend MT.
I agree Jeff, there are lots of variables and the win mag has a bit less capacity which would in theory help increase barrel life. I think it would be a great test for you to rebarrel in 300 win mag and run her up to 3100fps with the 215 berger and n570 and see what barrel life is like. It is a very small sample size but would still be very interesting to see how much difference there is. If the win mag can push the 215 the same speed as the 30 nosler and get double or triple the barrel life I can tell you I will be getting one, and I am not being sarcastic!

I will see where she lands. The barrel I have coming is 2" shorter so that would equal 50 fps. I also may +P the chamber. But haven't decided on that yet. I have the 300 Terminator with 245 Bergers at 3236 fps. And the 300 LRO is getting rechambered now too. What I want is for the executive order to be ole reliable when I want a rifle that I can depend on for a long time.

Jeff
 

MILEPOST

Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Messages
212
Reaction score
15
Points
18
I think the issue being discussed and the problem we are really dealing with here is what each of us perceive as a reasonable amount of barrel wear vs an increase in speed.

These newer design high BC bullets are heavy and in order to exploit this we have to push them harder and faster which means larger case capacity ( pressure reservoir) and more fuel going boom over a longer period of time. ( slower powders ). All this comes with a price.... Which means exhilarated barrel wear and longer barrels ( weight and portability )

Once steel gets over 1000 degrees it weakens considerably. Now couple that with a 65-70K psi of sledge hammer explosions going off... Thats plays hell with the grain structure and work hardens the surface of the barrel material. Also, we all know that slower powders expel their energy over a longer period of time and so the hot barrel gets sandblasted by partially burned kernels of VV570. All this can kill a barrel fairly quick. I think this is a problem, more or less, of all of the slower powders out there. But, It doesn't help either that VV570 has a very large kernel/pellet size. When it travels down the barrel at hypersonic speeds it erodes the barrel much worse than something that has a smaller pellet size.

Just in racing... Speed cost money! How fast do you want to go?
 
Last edited:

Broz

LRO Owner~Editor~Long Range Hunting Specilist
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Messages
11,953
Reaction score
5,241
Points
113
Location
Foot of the Big Belt Mountains near Townsend MT.
There is a lot of truth there Milepost. But I cant get past a few facts. 1: being my old 300 win mag running 210's at 3K and 215's at 3035 for close to 1500 rounds and still going. 2: Other rifles I and Danial have still going with N 570 running at top pressures. The possible reasons are many. And I truly believe I can run a 26" 300 win mag with 215's at 2950 plus, and get 1500 rounds or more of barrel life. Maybe many more. Its hard to get past the fact that to this day I have never had one barrel go south on a 300 win mag from erosion or wear. I really have no animosity for the 30 N or 300 PRC, but I for sure have yet to see any real world advantage in them either. Not when you consider all traits of each. But I remain optimistic for someone to show me the facts that one is well above the others in all aspects.

Jeff
 

Broz

LRO Owner~Editor~Long Range Hunting Specilist
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Messages
11,953
Reaction score
5,241
Points
113
Location
Foot of the Big Belt Mountains near Townsend MT.
The big thing I have noticed from rifle to rifle is the actual influence one barrel has on velocity compared to another. I just got off the phone with Dan Glover of Dan's custom gun service. He recently built himself a 300 win mag. 26" barrel, 215 Bergers, in ADG brass and H-1000 and its running happily at 3020 fps. He admits this is a fast barrel, but we agree 2950 to 3K is the norm.

Jeff
 

MILEPOST

Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Messages
212
Reaction score
15
Points
18
There is a lot of truth there Milepost. But I cant get past a few facts. 1: being my old 300 win mag running 210's at 3K and 215's at 3035 for close to 1500 rounds and still going. 2: Other rifles I and Danial have still going with N 570 running at top pressures. The possible reasons are many. And I truly believe I can run a 26" 300 win mag with 215's at 2950 plus, and get 1500 rounds or more of barrel life. Maybe many more. Its hard to get past the fact that to this day I have never had one barrel go south on a 300 win mag from erosion or wear. I really have no animosity for the 30 N or 300 PRC, but I for sure have yet to see any real world advantage in them either. Not when you consider all traits of each. But I remain optimistic for someone to show me the facts that one is well above the others in all aspects.

Jeff

Yeah, I would agree that there is also something else going on here.

I know a lot of people believe that certain particular modern day cases are more efficient. That they can handle high pressure better without showing it, I have no doubt. The only thing I can think of is the steep shoulder angles are the issue.

The steeper shoulder angles just might be redirecting the hot gases in a way that acts like a cutting torch. If you have ever looked closely at the exhaust of a jet fighter engine or rocket motor you will see multiple diamond shaped shock wave patterns formed and as the exhaust nozzles are closed and opened these patterns change drastically... Hmmm?

Everything else inside a rifle case is the same. The general shape from the base to the cylindrical walls and even the neck. I can't think of anything else that might be the cause of such an accelerated wear in a barrel.

What's the fix for this? Here in America, we are generally stuck with the size limitations of a Remington long or short action. To fit the long high BC bullets we are forced to go fatter and shorter to gain case capacity and still fit in the magazine. What can we do other then a good cleaning and coating bullets?

Barrel wear has been an issue that has been around for well over 100 years. Browning recognized this with the 50BMG and barrels had a stellite lined breech to help combat erosion. Nitriding can also help. Sure, there other super alloy materials that can be used to make barrels out but these are way too expensive for the average shooter.

I think the best way to handle this (fast and cheap) is to have a quick change barrel setup like what the military uses. Order up a barrel ahead of time and switch it out when needed. I believe this is what many Pro's in PRS are doing now.
 
Last edited:

Broz

LRO Owner~Editor~Long Range Hunting Specilist
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Messages
11,953
Reaction score
5,241
Points
113
Location
Foot of the Big Belt Mountains near Townsend MT.
I tend to favor long action rounds anyway. A simple Wyatts box install will fix about any of them. Many 300 win mags will work as they are with exceptions to the ignorance of some like Tikka with short mag boxes and 11 twist barrels on the 300 win mags. Its a non issue for me, I hear all the time about "we need shorter fatter cases to run big bullets" I don't often have an issue. Maybe because I tend to use a long action, never understood the love for a short action? Why? kinda like FFP scopes I guess. LOL The only rifle I have now with a small issue is my 6.5 PRC. Its the "New and improved" wizbang short fat case design and mag is a little short for the bigger bullets. On a short action, go figure.

Jeff
 
Joined
Aug 22, 2019
Messages
35
Reaction score
3
Points
8
Location
Western Montana
I try to avoid band wagons but if it makes sense...

Today I set back and re-chambered a Ruger M77 300 WM to 300 PRC. The reason being there was no more room in the mag to chase the lands and Rugers are short to begin with if you want to shoot big heavies. Working with what we have, it seems to make sense using the PRC to get the same performance and having more working room for seating depth. I suspect being only slightly larger diameter it should feed fine. We considered the 30 Nosler but didn't want any feeding surprises. The PRC just seemed like the easy answer in a Ruger.

This is the first PRC for me so I can only state intentions. Results to follow...
 

6.5sandoz

Member
Joined
May 16, 2019
Messages
44
Reaction score
35
Points
18
Outside of our circle mid and long range shooting is blowing up. Thanks to all the ballistics apps range finding improvements and off the shelf capable ammo. The creedmoor was the first step. For the custom build it is a wash these three, mostly about preference. But... saami, saam, saami. Throat length(usable case) and twist rate as well as off the shelf ammo with heavy for caliber high bc bullets. Thats the benefit of the 300 prc. My 6.5 prc shoots one factory load almost as good as my best hand load out to distance. This is what is supposed to be the magic of the 300 prc.
 

Broz

LRO Owner~Editor~Long Range Hunting Specilist
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Messages
11,953
Reaction score
5,241
Points
113
Location
Foot of the Big Belt Mountains near Townsend MT.
My 6.5 prc shoots one factory load almost as good as my best hand load out to distance. This is what is supposed to be the magic of the 300 prc.

Yes, but how is this different from a factory 300 win mag rifle, shooting factory 215 gr Berger ammo, at 2900+ fps into groups less than .75 moa? We have set up dozens of these. The bulk of the difference is marketing hype.

Jeff
 

bigbulls

Active member
Joined
Dec 12, 2016
Messages
141
Reaction score
26
Points
28
Location
oregon
It is ALL about marketing, there's not enough difference in the 3 named here that most guy's shooting skills ability could tell a difference. I have watched this over the last few years with the new calibers,bullets and ammo coming out. Hornady has one hell of a marketing team and they have a way of getting all the writers and retailers on board. I was in a large sporting goods retailer lately and had the sales person telling me how the 6.5 creedmoor had the same ballistics as a 300 WM and the 300 prc was way better than the 300 RUM, and this isn't the first time I've heard this in stores and online, where does this come from other then marketing and I suppose some just not researching it for themselves.
 

Yoteklr

Active member
Joined
Apr 27, 2017
Messages
299
Reaction score
114
Points
43
Location
Indiana
"sales person telling me how the 6.5 creedmoor had the same ballistics as a 300 WM and the 300 prc was way better than the 300 RUM"


Very annoying.
I TRY not to raise my voice whan I hear this.
 

6.5sandoz

Member
Joined
May 16, 2019
Messages
44
Reaction score
35
Points
18
Factory twist rates that are 10 and 11 will be marginally stable with the 215s
 

Broz

LRO Owner~Editor~Long Range Hunting Specilist
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Messages
11,953
Reaction score
5,241
Points
113
Location
Foot of the Big Belt Mountains near Townsend MT.
Factory twist rates that are 10 and 11 will be marginally stable with the 215s

1 in 11 yes, but there are many people running 215's through 1 in 10's. Even at sea level they seem to be fine. I am at 4K, but I have shot the 215's through a 1 in 10 since they came out. Not saying a 9 would not be a better choice, just offering experience.

We shot the ELR Steel challenge with the combo I mentioned above. Factory rifle, factory ammo.

Most respectable 300 factory 300 win mags today are 1 in 10 twist. At lease the good ones.

Jeff
 
Last edited:

FURMAN

LRO Rifle and Gear Review Editor
Staff member
Joined
May 27, 2015
Messages
2,664
Reaction score
2,223
Points
113
Location
Emporia Ks
If I knew I was only shooting the 215 I would personally prefer a 10 twist.
 

Ladd

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 17, 2019
Messages
4,490
Reaction score
4,453
Points
113
Location
St. George UT
I wonder if the 300 PRC with factory ammo is really as good as hand loads, as the marketing dept claims. I'm sure the 300 PRC was engineered as such but I shot a 3-shot group of ELD-m out of mine that had double digit SD and ES. I developed a load with the 230 gr. Atip that beats that and is nearly 100 fps faster and it grouped very well.

For those that don't handload and would rather shoot factory ammo I would say the 300 win mag is the caliber of choice shooting the Berger Ammo with the 215 gr Berger Hybrids. My Christensen Arms Ridgeline 300 win mag shoots them very well.

One important spec to watch for when buying a 300 win mag is making sure Berger factory ammo will fit your mag box. The mag box in my friend's Browning is too short. That's surprising.
 

md99cobra

New member
Joined
Mar 27, 2020
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Morning everyone. Happy Thanksgiving. sorry for dredging up an old thread but I was researching this exact topic and thesis post seemed to be the most relevant. I also watched Jeff‘s YT video on this as well.

I have been contemplating a 30 cal magnum build. I had almost convinced myself to go with the 30 Nosler but several factors kept swaying me back to the old tried and true 300WM. I think the video and this thread has put the nail in the coffin for me on the 30 Nosler for several reasons.

All that said, I’m considering improving the shoulder on the 300WM case to 35 or 40° and in doing so case capacity will slightly increase. I also have a 27” Barlein blank with an 9 twist and also have a Krieger on order with an 8 twist. I will have the reamer spec’d to seat the bullets out to the neck/shoulder junction. This will cause me to have to run a CIP length mag but I’m ok with that since the rifle will have a DBM anyway.

Any thoughts or experiences with the scenario posted?
 

gregsjt

Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2015
Messages
53
Reaction score
9
Points
8
The PRC and Nosler cases are already "improved", why go through the hassle with a win mag case?

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
 

Ladd

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 17, 2019
Messages
4,490
Reaction score
4,453
Points
113
Location
St. George UT
Actually, the 30 Sherman mag is the improved version of the 300 PRC. There’s not a huge difference between the two in my testing. I would think that an improved version of the 300 win mag wouldn’t gain much either. Fire forming is a chore I’d rather not have to do.
 

Yoteklr

Active member
Joined
Apr 27, 2017
Messages
299
Reaction score
114
Points
43
Location
Indiana
Actually, the 30 Sherman mag is the improved version of the 300 PRC. There’s not a huge difference between the two in my testing. I would think that an improved version of the 300 win mag wouldn’t gain much either. Fire forming is a chore I’d rather not have to do.
In all honesty, all brass ( especially belted magnums) needs to be fire formed to your chamber to get full case capacity.
 

bigbulls

Active member
Joined
Dec 12, 2016
Messages
141
Reaction score
26
Points
28
Location
oregon
If your wanting more out of a .30 cal. you might want to look at the 300 RBH and you can get a 100 hydro formed case from him that will last you at least one barrel if not more. I have one and I will say it is amazing 230 gr Berger's at 3150 with a middle of the road node you can get up around 3250 at the upper end of pressure.
 

Ladd

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 17, 2019
Messages
4,490
Reaction score
4,453
Points
113
Location
St. George UT
In all honesty, all brass ( especially belted magnums) needs to be fire formed to your chamber to get full case capacity.
Yes. I get that. Brass isn’t fully formed for several firings for the most part but you can start load development with virgin brass and gather data to use. I wouldn’t start where I needed to blow out the shoulder first unless you wanted to develope a load before and after.
 

md99cobra

New member
Joined
Mar 27, 2020
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
Points
1
The PRC and Nosler cases are already "improved", why go through the hassle with a win mag case?

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

Several reasons:
1) Cost of the 30 Nosler brass.
2) Shorter barrel life (at least that appears to be the case with the 30N).
3) Availability of brass.
4) Massive amount of factory ammo if needed in a pinch.
5) I don’t care for anything Hornady offers.

Actually, the 30 Sherman mag is the improved version of the 300 PRC. There’s not a huge difference between the two in my testing. I would think that an improved version of the 300 win mag wouldn’t gain much either. Fire forming is a chore I’d rather not have to do.

No so much looking for gains with the case but rather the benefits of the modified shoulder to minimize case stretch and trimming. Quick design calculates the case capacity after fireforming to be 99 grains.

In all honesty, all brass ( especially belted magnums) needs to be fire formed to your chamber to get full case capacity.

Yep 300 WM is notorious for stretching a good amount on the first firing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

md99cobra

New member
Joined
Mar 27, 2020
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Yes. I get that. Brass isn’t fully formed for several firings for the most part but you can start load development with virgin brass and gather data to use. I wouldn’t start where I needed to blow out the shoulder first unless you wanted to develope a load before and after.
I have 2 other AI cartridges. Fireforming doesn’t bother me at all.

 

Forum Sponsors

Top