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devlan
04-23-2014, 10:00
I am hoping to start a discussion on a topic that I (and possibly others) have an interest in. Specifically, I recently placed an order to have Shawn build me a new LRKM .338 Edge +P. Production is still a ways out. While patiently waiting, I have been doing a lot of research on reloading, equipment, etc. (the list goes on and on). Also, I am slowly but surely picking up reloading components and upgrading my gear for ELR shooting.

During my research, I have been reading a lot of Broz's (Jeff's) posts about his experiences with the .338 Terminator. Jeff and Shawn have also been kind enough to answer my endless questions about ELR gear. Thanks Jeff and Shawn! I am hoping to attend Jeff's shooting school (since it is only an hour away) with my dad once I receive my new LRKM.

So here is my question that I hope you all may be willing to chime in on: How does a person who is building an ELR hunting rifle choose between the .338 Edge+p and the .338 Terminator? Here are some basics:

Terminator: It is about 150-200 fps faster than the Edge, which is great for the type of hunting I want to do here in Montana. The extra speed may decrease barrel life. Lapua brass is expensive and must be fire or hydro formed to match the Terminator.

Edge+P: It is a little slower than the Terminator, but still deadly. Brass is easier to form since Shawn has dies available. With lower speeds the barrel should last longer.

Obviously, this is like asking what is the difference between a Ferrari and a Lamborghini. I'm just curious to hear everyone's thoughts. Maybe, if I still can, I will ask Shawn to switch me from the Ferrari to the Lamborghini.

On a final note, I love this site. Thank you everyone for your input/ideas!

Devlan

caleb
04-23-2014, 18:15
I am interested too!

EdgeFan
04-23-2014, 18:35
Ive owned an edge before because how easy it is to find brass....the extra speed isnt enough to offset the hassle of fire forming and so on.....ive ordered an LRKM in 338+P

IdahoCTD
04-23-2014, 19:44
I'd do a Terminator for the brass and the velocity. If your paying to use a custom action anyway it doesn't cost that much more. Sure it sucks to fireform but 100 rounds of brass will outlast the barrel and 50 might even do it. There have been people that have gotten 40-50 reloads out of Lapua brass if properly annealed. Shawn has even stated the velocity loss (70-80fps I thin is what he said) you can expect from Bertram brass due to the smaller case capacity.

mandomax
04-23-2014, 20:22
I ordered my LRKM in 338 Terminator with a 32" barrel with no regrets !
I've already bought bullets, brass and powder for it.
Fire forming is just another step I don't mind taking for my Lamborghini rifle .

Broz
04-23-2014, 20:26
the extra speed isnt enough to offset the hassle of fire forming and so on.

Well yes, and No.

Here are my thoughts on it. For sure the terminator is not for everyone. Nor will everyone benefit from the added 100 to 150 fps. But for some, depending on how far you want to shoot that 100 + fps will pay off. I look at the LRKM platform as an extreme version of the ultimate ELR rig. So why not get all you can?

I also feel many people make too much out of fire forming brass. It is only one more step, only needs to be done one time, and can easily be done prior to even getting your rifle. What else are you going to do for the 8 months while waiting? Shawn has developed a Hydro forming die that I think he intends to rent out. So you install the die in the press. Insert a case and run it up in the die. Fill the brass with water from a squirt bottle, insert a pin and smack it with a hammer. This gets the brass formed out to very close to maximum case dimension. Probably with in 2 to 3%.

From this point it is pretty much the same process to load for either. They both need fired with a full load to be fully formed to your chamber. They both need proper shoulder head spacing. The Bertram / EDGE brass needs trimming right off the bat and the Terminator does not.

So the only difference is the initial hydro or fire forming for the Terminator. I used an actual fire forming barreled action Shawn made me for my brass and fired it with corn meal and 25 gr of Universal Clays. I have done over 200 PCS that way so far and we are getting ready to do another 100 for LongShot's rifle. It is not that big of a deal to me.

Barrel life. It is a fact that barrel life will most likely be a little shorter in the faster rifle, (the Terminator) But I am more incline to believe that barrel life will be more determined by how the barrel is treated. Proper cleaning removing the carbon ring and not getting the rifle hot will make more difference that the extra speed. At least that's my theory. Also some barrels will last longer due to what they are made of and quality of metal. In other words not all barrels will last the same number of rounds. So until we get more rounds down the Terminator we really can only guess or compare it to something like a Lapua AI. I feel you can add some extra life to the barrel from the +P throat that moves the pressure spike farther into the burn time. Also I have my own thoughts on the +P being better on throat life from the leading lands being of lower dimension and wicking heat away sooner and less of the land being thinner and taller to get hotter. That prediction of mine comes from knowing what it took to keep pistons alive in a blown fuel engine. Taller thinner areas get hotter and melt first.

I have shot some 338's with 300 gr Bergers at 3000 fps. And I have several rounds through my Terminator with the same bullet at 3200 fps. 200 fps will really shine in the wind. Not that 3050 or 3100 is anything to sneeze at, but there is a clear advantage to smaller drift errors with velocity.

It is good to have choices. There is no bad choice here. Just a great rifle offered in some very good chamberings. Go with what you think you will like best. Once the brass forming is over you load for them the same. The choice should be more dependent on personal use than forming brass or barrel life differences.

Jeff

Broz
04-23-2014, 21:02
Just got of the phone with Ryan and we ran some numbers. We took what he is getting from his LRKM EDGE +P and added what we felt he could get with a barrel the same length as mine (32") We both are using VV-N570 and 300 Bergers.

We will look at wind drift, impact velocity and impact energy. His rifle at 3100 and mine at 3198 fps.

10 MPH full value winds.

1760 yards

EDGE +P.............. needs 8.3 moa of windage, arrives at 1550 fps and 1600 ft lbs of energy

Terminator +P....... needs 7.3 moa of windage, arrives at 1622 fps and 1754 ft lbs of energy

2000 yards

EDGE +P............... needs 10 moa of windage arrives at 1395 fps and 1297 ft lbs of energy

Terminator +P ...... needs 8.1 moa of windage arrives at 1454 fps and 1480 ft lbs of energy

2 moa less wind drift, almost 42 inches, at 2000 yards

So that gives some idea of just what 100 fps will do for you. The velocity pays off in less windage error but also will add some terminal performance to open bullet when you approach the threshold of where a bullet will expand. If a bullet needs 100 more fps to expand it could be an advantage at the longest pokes with a ELR rig in a hunting situation.

Hope this helps. But like I said before , no bad choice here.

Jeff

Shawn Carlock
04-24-2014, 05:27
Great posts guys, you could always get one of each.:o
I have the original test rifle that I am going to chamber in Terminator with a 32" Broughton barrel I have lying around it will be a heavy rifle (not legal for Idaho) should weigh around 18 lbs scoped etc. This will be my 3K rifle, also designing a different brake possibly for it. I have a LRKM in 338 Edge +P with all the current production parts and a Ti suppressor this is my hunting rig. I love the Edge +P but clearly the Terminator is an advantage at extreme range and I hope to capture some 3K shooting on video this year. Like Jeff I have my ideas about barrel wear but will just have to see how it goes.

devlan
04-24-2014, 07:33
Wow. I am glad I asked the question. I appreciate all of the information . But I'm not certain if the info leaves me more firmly decided or less firmly decided.

I notice you guys both mentioned 32" barrels. My current order calls for a 30" barrel. What kind of accuracy differences will one see with a 30" barrel? Keep in mind that this LRKM is going to be a hunting gun first and foremost. So, weight and length are issues.

Broz
04-24-2014, 09:00
The length of my 32" barrel LRKM with a 5 port slab brake is 43 3/4" hardly a long rifle and most likely shorter than most all hunting rifles. All my rifles are hunting rifles. I am a long range hunter first and foremost.

Figure 20 to 25 fps per in of barrel between 30 and 32".

Hart only makes barrels up to 30" I wish they mad 32's as I would prefer a Hart over a Kreiger. But if you want a 32 you will need to use a mfg other than Hart.

There will be no accuracy difference from a 30 or 32" barrel. Only velocity difference which will result in the higher velocity bullet having less wind drift as time of flight will be less.

Jeff

devlan
04-24-2014, 09:18
There will be no accuracy difference from a 30 or 32" barrel. Only velocity difference which will result in the higher velocity bullet having less wind drift as time of flight will be less.

If that is the case, why not just build with a 30" Hart barrel? By the way, that is how my LRKM is spec'd.

Broz
04-24-2014, 09:32
If that is the case, why not just build with a 30" Hart barrel? By the way, that is how my LRKM is spec'd.

The 30 is fine and will be around 50 fps slower than a 32. The result will not be in accuracy. It will however be that the 30 will have more wind drift as shown in the posted results above from Ryan's rifle and mine. Higher velocity equals less time of flight. Less time of flight equals less wind drift.

Jeff

Broz
04-24-2014, 09:36
Let me say it like this. All of the choices , EDGE +P or Terminator +P, 30" or 32" can shoot the same one hole groups at 100 yards or 200 yards. Where they differ is the faster bullet will drift less at longer distances from outside environmental conditions, namely wind.

Jeff

Broz
04-24-2014, 09:51
Devlan, Shawn has spent time with you in conversation I am sure and knows his business which includes qualifying the best solution to his customers needs. If you can not decide for yourself, I suggest you let Shawn guide you to what he feels will suit your needs the best. In the end he is the expert and wants your build to be all you want it to be.

Jeff

Shepardsonp
04-24-2014, 19:34
I am hoping to start a discussion on a topic that I (and possibly others) have an interest in. Specifically, I recently placed an order to have Shawn build me a new LRKM .338 Edge +P. Production is still a ways out. While patiently waiting, I have been doing a lot of research on reloading, equipment, etc. (the list goes on and on). Also, I am slowly but surely picking up reloading components and upgrading my gear for ELR shooting.

During my research, I have been reading a lot of Broz's (Jeff's) posts about his experiences with the .338 Terminator. Jeff and Shawn have also been kind enough to answer my endless questions about ELR gear. Thanks Jeff and Shawn! I am hoping to attend Jeff's shooting school (since it is only an hour away) with my dad once I receive my new LRKM.

So here is my question that I hope you all may be willing to chime in on: How does a person who is building an ELR hunting rifle choose between the .338 Edge+p and the .338 Terminator? Here are some basics:

Terminator: It is about 150-200 fps faster than the Edge, which is great for the type of hunting I want to do here in Montana. The extra speed may decrease barrel life. Lapua brass is expensive and must be fire or hydro formed to match the Terminator.

Edge+P: It is a little slower than the Terminator, but still deadly. Brass is easier to form since Shawn has dies available. With lower speeds the barrel should last longer.

Obviously, this is like asking what is the difference between a Ferrari and a Lamborghini. I'm just curious to hear everyone's thoughts. Maybe, if I still can, I will ask Shawn to switch me from the Ferrari to the Lamborghini.

On a final note, I love this site. Thank you everyone for your input/ideas!

Devlan

I recently was faced with that decision.... Now I have BOTH! :cool:

Shepardsonp
04-24-2014, 19:45
Great posts guys, you could always get one of each.:o
I have the original test rifle that I am going to chamber in Terminator with a 32" Broughton barrel I have lying around it will be a heavy rifle (not legal for Idaho) should weigh around 18 lbs scoped etc. This will be my 3K rifle, also designing a different brake possibly for it. I have a LRKM in 338 Edge +P with all the current production parts and a Ti suppressor this is my hunting rig. I love the Edge +P but clearly the Terminator is an advantage at extreme range and I hope to capture some 3K shooting on video this year. Like Jeff I have my ideas about barrel wear but will just have to see how it goes.

I currently have 5 punches on my Defensive Edge Frequent Buyers Club Card!

Two 338 Edge's
One 338 Edge+P (Bertram Brass)
One 338 Terminator +P

If you add the CZ 452 I am only one punch away from a free rifle!!!!

yobuck
04-25-2014, 07:17
In reality none of these things are true walking around type hunting rifles. So therefore whats an extra pound of barrel?
My son has a 30" on a 338x378 and were wishing it was 32". I think a guy needs 2 guns for long range hunting.
One for under 1200 and one for over 1200. If your going to build one for over 1200 build the best one as they cost about the same.
Under 1200 is actually more important in my opinion as thats where most shots will be. Dont get caught with the wrong gun there either.

Shepardsonp
04-25-2014, 08:21
In reality none of these things are true walking around type hunting rifles. So therefore whats an extra pound of barrel?
My son has a 30" on a 338x378 and were wishing it was 32". I think a guy needs 2 guns for long range hunting.
One for under 1200 and one for over 1200. If your going to build one for over 1200 build the best one as they cost about the same.
Under 1200 is actually more important in my opinion as thats where most shots will be. Dont get caught with the wrong gun there either.

That is a great point !!!

I carry 2 rifles with me most of the time - and LOCK one on my ATV when not using the other

Mornings and Evenings are spent with he ELR setup (.338 Edge +P) to catch them on the south facing mountain sides when they are feeding or coming out to feed.

During the day, we walk the dark time trying get shots at them n the Dark Timber. I use a custom .300 Win Mag with 4.5x14 Leupold. ALL of my elk have been killed with the 300 WM as the last few years we have been snowed out of the high country where the ELR shooting spots are.

mandomax
04-25-2014, 08:52
I just bought a 300RUM that I consider as being my all around hunting rifle. It weighs a total of 12lbs. with scope which is still a little heavy for some but manageable for me even on the longest hikes. I can even make it back out with a load of meat. I shoot 230gr. Bergers out of it and is capable of shots beyond 1200yds.
When I ordered my LRKM I considered it an obviously specialty rifle that will shoot well beyond my capabilities. This is an extreme rifle so I ordered it just that way, in its full potential platform. I will be using my LRKM for hunting scenerios that I see fit for but it will certainly be part of the gear coming with me on every out of state hunt. Now I say every out of state hunt because it would be kind of silly to hunt with it here in California (soon to be leaving this state).

Anyway, I think these two rifles will cover a broad range of my needs.
The kids will need something to shoot so I see a 6.5 or 7mm in the near future to add to my collection.

Broz
04-25-2014, 09:28
My two main hunting rifles are a 11.5 lb 300 win with a NXS 5.5~22 and the LRKM in 338 Terminator +P. Both fit nicely into my back pack scabbard and both can be carried. They both have their places where each will shine. Between these two I feel I can cover any hunting situation I come against at least in my neck of the woods.

Jeff

338edge
04-25-2014, 18:49
Broz,
How much does your LRKM weigh?

Broz
04-25-2014, 20:11
Broz,
How much does your LRKM weigh?

With bipod and ATACR on my bow pull scale it shows just under 16 lbs

Jeff

yobuck
04-26-2014, 09:52
The situation today is different than years back for numerous reasons. Used to be we could take a shot late in the day
and assuming cold weather go find the deer the next day if necessary. Now days your just giving a deer to the coyotes.
So if your gonna shoot kill it now. Dont be fooling around seeing how your new hot shot caliber works.
Weve killed lots of deer over many years with 7x300 weatherbys. But if starting over again today, i wouldnt be building one for long range hunting.
A sendero type 300 ultra and a big 338 would be my selections. Even poorer hits seem to work better with the bigger bullets.

slaysesh
04-26-2014, 18:40
For the little trouble forming the brass is going to take and the benefits that can be had from the terminator (less wind dirt=less from for error) I would go with the hot rod.

On a side note I wish the lrkm was still offered in the bat action. Very proven unit and was less expensive?? it's hard to drop that kind of money with no pictures or proof it even works? If the bat action was still available I just might have to own one.

Ryan Avery
04-26-2014, 22:12
For the little trouble forming the brass is going to take and the benefits that can be had from the terminator (less wind dirt=less from for error) I would go with the hot rod.

On a side note I wish the lrkm was still offered in the bat action. Very proven unit and was less expensive?? it's hard to drop that kind of money with no pictures or proof it even works? If the bat action was still available I just might have to own one.

Building an action is not rocket science and I highly doubt Shawn will let a crappy product go out the door. Plus he won't have to wait in line for actions. Just smart business.

Broz
04-27-2014, 06:10
DE has and has had a long awaited order for more LRKM actions from Bat. It is my understanding that the wait has become unacceptable and Shawn decided to engineer his own action with some features he felt would be an improvement.

Also I just recently discussed the test plan for the actions DE is producing. Pressure in which it will be tested are many times above any safe pressure you would see in any magnum or wildcat. Plus the action will be taken to the point where is fails to see it is safe for the use in any rifle or application.

Jeff

yobuck
04-27-2014, 07:19
A man just cant let others dictate what kind and how many guns he's gonna build. A brief story about actions.
About 50 years ago when long range hunting was becoming popular in PA. there were "NO" custom actions suitable
for some of the guns being built. A farmer/gunsmith by name of HOWARD WOLFE, had been fooling around with a
wildcat cartridge by necking down a 378 weatherby case to 30 caliber. He could sell all he built but couldnt find suitable actions.
The mark 5 wasent yet built. So Howard the farmer designed his own large 3 lug action. He didnt have the proper machinery but
he managed to get a prototype built. Testing was done by lashing a barreled action to a large tire and filling the case with a hot powder.
A long cord was used to set it off. After which the barrel was removed due to bolt lock up and the fragmented case removed. Put back
together and done again several more times. The action held up well and as far as i know is still in use. He then arrainged for a large
machine company in Williamsport to supply the parts he couldnt make on his own. I have #29 Wolfe action sitting behind my 338 BIG BAER.
Shawn Corlock is light years ahead of Howard Wolfe as for knowledge about building actions. Not to even mention the advancement in machinery.
When i took my 30x378 to bruce for a new barrel, he suggested i consider the big baer. When i asked about the action being suitable, he said i have
one of my own. Id be wanting the lowest # of Shawns actions i could get.

slaysesh
04-28-2014, 09:26
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion you have yours, i have mine just would like to have options.. and for some of the reasons stated above i can see why he is doing what he is. i wouldn't mind waiting for a bat action but thats just me. Can't a guy be skeptical though???

EdgeFan
04-28-2014, 11:29
I'm sure if you want to wait for a BAT action that be an option isn't it??

Broz
04-28-2014, 11:50
I know Shawn has Bats on order. So I am sure one could be ordered that way if you don't mind the wait. Or, I would possibly consider selling current LRKM with the Bat action and a new barrel installed. Then I will order a new LRKM with the DE action as I like some of the changes Shawn in doing to it.

Jeff

EdgeFan
04-28-2014, 17:34
I would gladly take your spot in line if you want to wait longer for a BAT :D as long as your spot is ahead of me!



Everyone is entitled to their own opinion you have yours, i have mine just would like to have options.. and for some of the reasons stated above i can see why he is doing what he is. i wouldn't mind waiting for a bat action but thats just me. Can't a guy be skeptical though???

rknighton
04-29-2014, 09:32
I just sent my deposit for a LRKM in 338 Terminator+P. Patiently waiting now.

slaysesh
04-30-2014, 13:08
that might be something to think about jeff? pm me. and i ask if i could have one built with the bat. they said they are no longer offering them and wouldn't do it. because the stocks are changing a little and they won't be stocking them